说话人A 00:08
In twenty fifteen long before Covid-19 began to rip around the world Bill Gates gave a ted talk years later it seems remarkably prescient he entered the stage wheeling a large barrel marked survival supplies.
25 岁，早在 Covid-19 开始席卷全球之前，比尔·盖茨 （Bill Gates） 在多年后发表了一次 ted 演讲，他似乎非常有先见之明，推着一个标有生存用品的大桶登上舞台。
说话人B 00:32
When i was a kid the disaster we worried about most was a nuclear war that's why we had a barrel like this down in our basement filled with cans of food and water when the nuclear attack came were supposed to go downstairs hunker down and eat out of that barrel。.
当我还是个孩子的时候，我们最担心的灾难是核战争，这就是为什么我们在地下室里放了一个这样的桶，里面装满了罐装食物和水，当核攻击来临时，应该下楼蹲下来吃那个桶。
说话人A 00:52
But in fact he said the greatest risk of global catastrophe didn't come in the form of a mushroom cloud from a nuclear bomb but a tiny pathogen.
但他说，事实上，全球灾难的最大风险不是核弹产生的蘑菇云，而是一种微小的病原体。
说话人B 01:02
If anything kills over ten million people in the next few decades，it's most likely to be a highly infectious virus rather than a war not missiles，but microbes.
如果说在未来几十年内有什么东西会杀死超过一千万人，那很可能是一种高传染性病毒，而不是战争，不是导弹，而是微生物。
说话人A 01:18
We're all too familiar now with how right he turned out to be this year Bill Gates took to the ted podium once again.
我们现在都再熟悉了，今年比尔·盖茨再次登上了 ted 的领奖台。
说话人B 01:26
In the year sixty e a fire devastated Rome.
六十年，一场大火摧毁了罗马。
说话人A 01:31
This time carrying a different prop a replica of a bucket used by the。.
这次携带的是另一个道具，一个桶的复制品，由。.
说话人A 01:36
First firefighting brigades in ancient Rome.
古罗马第一支消防队。
说话人B 01:40
He created a permanent team of firefighters who use buckets just like this one.
他创建了一支永久的消防员团队，他们使用像这样的水桶。
说话人A 01:48
It symbolized an idea from his latest book how to prevent the next pandemic he wants the world to create a kind of global fire brigade to make pandemics and public health emergencies a thing of the past hello and welcome to babidge from the economist our weekly podcast on science and technology i'm alloc jar the economist science correspondent this week our science and technology editor Jeff carr took a trip to California to meet Bill Gates and hear what he had to say about how to prevent future health threats。.
它象征着他最新著作中的一个想法 如何预防下一次大流行 他希望世界创建一种全球消防队，让流行病和突发公共卫生事件成为过去 你好，欢迎来到《经济学人》的巴比奇，我们每周的科学技术播客 我是 Alloc Jar 经济学人 本周的科学记者 我们的科技编辑杰夫·卡尔 （Jeff Carr） 前往加利福尼亚与比尔·盖茨会面，听听他对如何预防未来健康威胁的看法。
说话人A 02:26
from what kinds of viruses pose a risk to human society to his optimism about the new technologies that could prevent pathogens from spreading around the world so how can the next pandemic be prevented。
从什么样的病毒对人类社会构成风险，到他看好新技术可以阻止病原体在世界范围内传播，那么如何才能预防下一次大流行。
说话人A 02:45
The economist science and technology editor Jeff carr is with me now hi Jeff good to have you back.
经济学家科技编辑杰夫·卡尔现在和我在一起，嗨，杰夫很高兴你回来。
说话人C 02:50
Hi allok how.
嗨，大家好。
说话人A 02:51
Are you doing i'm good thank you now Jeff you've been to see Bill Gates and he's been reviewing his calls for better pandemic preparedness hasn't.
你在做吗，我很好，谢谢你，杰夫，你去见了比尔·盖茨，他一直在审查他关于加强大流行准备的呼吁，但还没有。
说话人C 02:58
He has indeed he's very well known of course in the field of global health the foundation he set up has done a lot of work on hiv and on Malaria and other illnesses for this he wants to create a new organization he's gonna call it germ if it happens he calls it the germ team indeed which means global epidemic response and。.
他确实非常有名，当然，他在全球卫生领域非常有名，他成立的基金会在艾滋病毒、疟疾和其他疾病方面做了很多工作，为此他想创建一个新组织，如果发生这种情况，他将称之为细菌团队，他确实称之为细菌团队，这意味着全球流行病应对和。
说话人C 03:21
Mobilization the idea would be to assemble a team of about three thousand experts epidemiologists，geneticists，drug and vaccine developers computer modellers diplomats people who would be able to engage in various aspects of the problem and he suggests it might all be managed under the agencies of the world health organization.
动员这个想法是组建一个由大约三千名专家组成的团队：流行病学家、遗传学家、药物和疫苗开发人员、计算机建模师、外交官、能够参与问题各个方面的人员，他建议这一切都可以在世界卫生组织的机构下进行管理。
说话人A 03:43
You know you had the pleasure of going over to California to catch up with him about this plan then you where did you meet him well.
你知道你有幸去加利福尼亚与他讨论这个计划，然后你在哪里认识了他。
说话人C 03:49
I miss him in a place called palm desert。.
我想念他在一个叫做棕榈沙漠的地方。.
说话人C 03:52
It's just south of palm springs bill how are you good to see you yeah.
就在棕榈泉比尔的南边，你很高兴见到你，是的。
说话人B 03:55
Great you're here thank you in person i'm.
很高兴你在这里，当面谢谢你。
说话人C 03:58
In person yes and we have a little recording studio there.
是的，我们在那里有一个小录音室。
说话人B 04:02
This actually my first interview for the book so oh.
这实际上是我第一次接受这本书的采访，所以哦。
说话人C 04:06
Brian it's okay right ha no pressure then.
布莱恩，没关系，好吧，那就没有压力了。
说话人B 04:11
Well maybe the most fun one.
好吧，也许是最有趣的一个。
说话人C 04:12
Also so we sat down in that to have a really good chat about what he hopes to see to avoid the sort of catastrophe。.
所以我们坐下来，好好聊了聊他希望看到什么，以避免那种灾难。
说话人C 04:18
We just witness happening again in the future Bill Gates you have spent much of the past two and a half decades i thinking about pandemic disease you've also warned in the past that the world is not equipped to deal with a rapidly spreading infection like covid why do you think that is.
我们只是见证了未来再次发生，比尔·盖茨，在过去二十五年的大部分时间里，我一直在思考大流行病，你过去也警告说，世界没有能力应对像新冠肺炎这样迅速传播的感染，你认为这是为什么。
说话人B 04:34
Well，it's interesting to compare other bad situations and how well governments do in protecting their citizens from those things like fire which i think is important analogy you have lots of small fires and so you have this constant reminder that oh my god you know every day there's some of these。.
好吧，比较其他糟糕的情况以及政府在保护公民免受火灾等伤害方面做得如何是很有趣的，我认为这是一个重要的类比，你有很多小火，所以你不断提醒你，哦，天哪，你知道每天都有一些这样的情况。
说话人B 04:53
things and let's have professionals let's have capacity and they're good at practicing the wars you don't get that many of，but you know there is practice you know so called war games and things and of course almost sadly you might say massive money that goes into those you know earthquakes there's lots of small ones pandemics infectious disease doesn't really hit particularly the rich world very often mean yes，we had a few of ball yeah cases and we had sars covid one and the last really big one of course is over a hundred years ago now。
事情，让我们有专业人士，让我们有能力，他们擅长练习战争，你没有那么多，但你知道有一些练习，你知道所谓的战争游戏和事情，当然，几乎可悲的是，你可能会说巨额资金投入到那些你知道的地震中，有很多小的流行病，传染病并没有真正袭击，特别是富裕世界，通常意味着是的，我们有一些球是的，病例，我们有 SARS、Covid 1，最后一次真正的大病例当然是一百多年前的事了。
说话人C 05:32
How would you attempt to preempt the next one you raise about the idea of having some of global fire brigade how would that work what would it do what would its remit be and who would pay for it yeah.
你会如何尝试抢占下一个你提出的关于拥有一些全球消防队的想法的想法，这将如何运作，它将做什么，它的职权范围是什么，谁来支付费用，是的。
说话人B 05:43
So the book you know says you have to do three things the global fire brigade，which that's by far the most concrete thing in the book and so i'll elaborate on that second is a lot of innovative tools better diagnostics，therapeutics and vaccines and then finally the big number is just improving health systems the good one about that is that。.
所以你知道的书中说你必须做三件事：全球消防队，这是迄今为止书中最具体的事情，所以我将详细说明第二件事，第二是许多创新工具，更好的诊断、治疗和疫苗，最后，大数字只是改善卫生系统，最好的一点是。
说话人B 06:06
Helps you every year even when there's not a pandemic even some of the rnd you know like vaccines that are easy to apply and thermostable that helps you even not in the pandemic the very first thing is where i go into the most detail that's this germ group you know i think.
每年都会帮助你，即使没有大流行，甚至是你知道的一些 rnd，比如易于应用和耐热的疫苗，即使在大流行中也能帮助你，第一件事是我最详细的地方，你知道，我认为这个细菌群。
说话人C 06:23
Germans stands.
德国人站起来。
说话人B 06:24
For global epidemic response and mobilization you.
为全球疫情应对和动员你。
说话人C 06:29
Know it's no backroom there then ha.
知道那里没有密室，哈。
说话人B 06:31
Yeah so see you know yeah an acronym minutes about three thousand people with a wide range of skill sets you know we have to data reporting the formats the models how you orchestrate all of that i mean the。.
是的，所以你知道，是的，一个首字母缩略词分钟，大约三千人，拥有广泛的技能组合，你知道，我们必须数据报告格式、模型、你如何编排所有这些，我的意思是。。
说话人B 06:45
Data wow there was a lot of bad data.
数据哇，有很多坏数据。
说话人C 06:48
You've got to take a lot of countries on board with that and very often these things emerge in places which are not necessarily entirely transparent how would this work democratically how would you gather everybody.
你必须让很多国家参与进来，而且这些事情经常出现在不一定完全透明的地方，这将如何民主地运作，你如何聚集所有人。
说话人B 06:59
In yeah grand zero sadly could be in a place with very little capacity or could be in a place that chooses to cover it up the latter i'm not as worried about i mean yes，could we have gained a few weeks。.
是的，可悲的是，大零可能在一个容量很小的地方，或者可能在一个选择掩盖它的地方，后者我不那么担心，我的意思是是，我们能获得几周的时间吗。
说话人B 07:16
i mean people will be arguing about that for a long time and a lot of people their biases for against China in general sadly kind of influences how they see that i'm not sure that we'll get going much faster in a future pandemic than we did in this one and part of that is that i think the likelihood of an outbreak is in very low income countries where the boundaries between humans。
我的意思是，人们会争论很长时间，很多人对中国的偏见总体上影响了他们的看法，我不确定我们在未来的大流行中是否会比这次大流行更快地发展，部分原因是我认为疫情爆发的可能性发生在非常低收入的国家，那里的人与人之间的界限。
说话人B 07:41
and animals and meat markets you know although we've had now a couple in China you know Africa is a significant source of natural my book isn't super focused on bioterrorism is a threat factor if you wanna get serious about that everything in the book is necessary，but you have to do even more because you have an opponent who sort of intentionally picked a bad virus and concede it in many places and so that's an even tougher problem yeah for the natural pathogen the three thousand people in germ team。
还有动物和肉类市场，你知道，虽然我们现在在中国已经有过几个，你知道非洲是重要的自然来源，我的书并不是特别关注生物恐怖主义，如果你想认真对待书中的一切都是必要的，这是一个威胁因素，但你必须做更多的事情，因为你有一个对手故意选择一种坏病毒，并在很多地方承认它，所以这是一个更棘手的问题，是的，对于天然病原体来说，细菌团队的三千人。
说话人B 08:17
They would do more hands on work for low capacity countries like drc and for rich countries they would just agree on protocols and do the simulations they wouldn't need to have full time staff in，but the brain come country.
他们会为刚果民主共和国等低产能国家做更多的实际工作，而对于富裕国家，他们只需就协议达成一致并进行模拟，他们不需要全职员工，但大脑来自国家。
说话人C 08:34
This is all very reactive，but how much do you think we could create an organization that was a surveillance organization that spotted something really early and stopped it becoming pandemic or epidemic well.
这一切都是非常被动的，但你认为我们能在多大程度上创建一个监测组织，一个非常早地发现某些东西并很好地阻止它变成大流行或流行病的组织。
说话人B 08:45
That promise is that we can catch it early enough and that means in those first hundred days and。.
这个承诺是我们可以及早发现它，这意味着在最初的一百天内。
说话人B 08:50
so that it doesn't spread to a lot of countries and so it becomes labeled a pandemic so i literally say that if you catch it and it's only in you know three or four countries it won't be called a pandemic and the deaths and economic damage will be hopefully less than one percent if you do that well of what we suffered this time around you know we have a lot of experience and surveillance you know the improvement in diagnostic tools is pretty phenomenal and that really helps your surveillance because if you have an unusual spike in say respiratory disease then you can go in and get。
这样它就不会传播到很多国家，因此它就会被贴上大流行病的标签，所以我从字面上说，如果你感染了它，而且它只在三四个国家，你知道，它不会被称为大流行病，如果你把我们这次所遭受的痛苦做好，死亡人数和经济损失有望低于百分之一，你知道我们有很多经验监测，你知道诊断工具的改进是非常惊人的，这确实有助于你的监测，因为如果你的呼吸系统疾病出现异常高峰，那么你可以进去接受。
说话人B 09:28
The pathogen get the sequence pretty quickly you know we scaled up sequencing capacity and diagnostic capacity at the tail of this pandemic that has to be there in advance right.
病原体很快就会得到测序，你知道，我们在这场大流行的尾声扩大了测序能力和诊断能力，这必须提前做好。
说话人C 09:39
That would be one of the things that germ was doing would it be yes.
这将是细菌正在做的事情之一，如果是的。
说话人B 09:42
Building this up，it'll look at every country and say okay do you have that diagnostic capacity do you need donor money to do that do you need training to do that so yeah catching it early in you know some rural low income place that's necessary or that'll be where the pandemics come from.
建立这个，它会看看每个国家，然后说，好吧，你有没有诊断能力，你需要捐助者的钱来做这件事吗，你需要培训来做到这一点，所以是的，尽早发现它，你知道一些农村低收入的地方是必要的，或者那将是流行病的来源。
说话人C 10:01
What do you think about the idea of。.
你怎么看待这个想法。.
说话人C 10:03
Of going even further back in the chain of causation than that and we know almost all pathogens started in animals and crossed the species barrier looking to catalog the risk if you like there's a global Byron project for example.
在因果关系链中追溯到比这更远的地方，我们知道几乎所有的病原体都始于动物，并跨越了物种障碍，希望对风险进行分类，例如，有一个全球拜伦项目。
说话人B 10:14
Yeah there are some people very enthused about that and certainly we should fund research in that area the current state of the art at being able to look at a virus that's in animal and understand the risk level of it adapting to say human receptors crossing over is so weak that you could look at millions of these viruses that are there in these animals and it's not。.
是的，有些人对此非常热衷，当然我们应该资助该领域的研究，目前能够观察动物体内的病毒并了解它的风险水平，适应人类受体交叉的风险水平是如此微弱，你可以看看这些动物体内存在的数百万个病毒，但事实并非如此。
说话人B 10:39
that helpful because you see there's just so many you know fortunately very few of those make that path we understand like that pig's lungs have receptor similar to ours so typically flu you know it's endemic in birds except for a few cases it goes through pigs and humans are living in particularly in China they're living in close proximity so those things cross over i don't know that you can get an early warning signal by seeing a virus in another species if we could great。
这很有帮助，因为你看到，你知道的有很多，幸运的是，很少有人能走上我们所理解的那条路，比如猪的肺有与我们相似的受体，所以典型的流感，你知道它在鸟类中流行，除了少数情况，它通过猪和人类生活，特别是在中国，它们生活得很近，所以这些东西会交叉，我不知道你能不能早点得到如果我们能的话，通过在另一个物种中看到病毒来发出警告信号。
说话人B 11:12
I know.
我知道。
说话人C 11:12
There's some people who've had this idea that you catalog the viruses in animals of the sort that people interact with so you know the virus is in the animals and then you take samples from the locals，every so often and see if the viruses are getting in there and when you look back at history of hiv，which i know you're extremely familiar with some strains of hiv have got into the human population gone nowhere and then finally one really became rampant.
有些人有这样的想法，即你对与人互动的那种动物中的病毒进行分类，这样你就知道病毒在动物体内，然后你经常从当地人那里采集样本，看看病毒是否进入那里，当你回顾艾滋病毒的历史时，我知道你非常熟悉一些艾滋病毒株已经进入了人类人口无处可去，然后终于真正猖獗了。
说话人B 11:37
Yeah。.
是的。。
说话人B 11:37
i'm not sure i mean the world's a big place so how many sampling sites would you need to have some percentage chance of seeing it early on this like you know understanding transmission and variance i hope the world's rnd budgets either shift in this direction or increase to cover these things i don't think we're smart enough to say okay that you don't put all your money on seeing it early i think it's worth trying，but god there's so many species and so many places it could cross over i don't know that by going down into the animal domain。
我不确定我的意思是世界很大，所以你需要多少个采样点才能有一定百分比的机会尽早看到它，就像你知道的那样，了解传播和方差，我希望世界的 RND 预算要么朝这个方向转变，要么增加以涵盖这些事情，我认为我们不够聪明，可以说好吧，你不要把所有的钱都花在尽早看到它上，我认为值得一试，但是天哪，有那么多物种，这么多地方，它可以跨越，我不知道，通过深入动物领域。
说话人B 12:15
We'll be smarter about seeing it early or just seeing potential ones and then having preparation for that but hey there's smart people are very energetic about that and you know hundreds of them should be well funded to pursue that.
我们会更聪明地尽早看到它，或者只是看到潜在的，然后为此做好准备，但是嘿，聪明人对此非常有活力，你知道数百人应该有充足的资金来追求这一点。
说话人C 12:31
If were to eradicate the entire families of respiratory viruses influenza，normally starts in a domestic animal or in wild foul，would you be able to reach back into those populations or would you just be trying to inoculate the most population so that they crossover never happens.
如果要根除呼吸道病毒流感的整个家族，通常始于家畜或野生恶臭，您是否能够回到这些人群中，或者您只是试图为最多的人群接种，以便它们永远不会发生交叉。
说话人B 12:47
Yeah i think you can get rid of it in pigs and create a barrier to trans crossover there birds。.
是的，我认为你可以在猪身上摆脱它，并为那里的跨性别鸟类创造一个障碍。
说话人B 12:54
No，so you're gonna still have to have diligence for crossovers coming out of birds which has happened a few times so you can't just ignore flu forever，but you get rid of massive current burden and the idea that the variant in humans is what comes along and creates that next pandemic in.
不，所以你仍然需要对鸟类的交叉进行勤奋，这种情况已经发生过几次了，所以你不能永远忽视流感，但你摆脱了当前的巨大负担，以及人类变种是出现并造成下一次大流行的想法。
说话人C 13:14
The current pandemic，the one thing that's been very successful is vaccination in your germ hypothesis how they put it like that the germ theory of Bill Gates how would you go about developing vaccine preparedness meaning that we could react even faster.
当前的大流行，非常成功的一件事是疫苗接种，在你的细菌假说中，他们是这样说的，比尔盖茨的细菌理论，你将如何发展疫苗准备，这意味着我们可以更快地做出反应。
说话人B 13:29
To yeah in the first hundred days。.
在前一百天内是。。
说话人B 13:32
you're not going to have a vaccine for an unknown pathogen，but what you'd really like for the first hundred days is just to have a blocker something you could inhale that's either very generic there's some really good work about just making your immune system prepared the innate immune system and two or three compounds that look like they put your immune system on such high alert that in a very broad way you can resist getting infected then you know they're very quickly creating like a mini binder just a protein that happens to latch。
你不会为未知病原体接种疫苗，但你真正想要的只是有一个阻滞剂，你可以吸入一些非常通用的东西，有一些非常好的工作，只是让你的免疫系统做好准备，先天免疫系统和两三种化合物，看起来它们让你的免疫系统处于高度戒备状态，以一种非常广泛的方式，你可以抵抗被感染，然后你知道它们会很快像迷你粘合剂一样产生，只是一种碰巧附着的蛋白质。
说话人B 14:12
onto the virus and get an aerosol version of that you might be able to get out very quickly but part of the game of vaccines is to develop for all the known family of respiratory viruses very broad vaccine coverage and potentially even use those vaccines to eradicate the virus presence in humans you know if you took flu out of humans there's a lot of negative health effects of flu every year there's a lot of deaths you know it's believed that having flu。
在病毒上并获得气溶胶版本，你也许能够很快摆脱，但疫苗游戏的一部分是针对所有已知的呼吸道病毒家族开发非常广泛的疫苗覆盖范围，甚至可能使用这些疫苗来根除人类体内的病毒，你知道，如果你把流感从人类身上取出，每年都会对健康产生很多负面影响很多人死了，你知道相信得了流感。
说话人B 14:45
while you're pregnant predisposes lots of negative outcomes for the birth，including even schizophrenia risk is substantially increased if a mother has flu during the first trimester it's like four times greater risk and you know these viral infections often leave bad things later like we're still learning a lot about long covid and what might be there and even in a recent paper saying there's elevated diabetes in people who've had covid although i think there'll still be some debate about that one so vaccines can get rid of respiratory pathogens。
当你怀孕时，会给分娩带来很多负面后果，包括精神分裂症的风险也会大大增加，如果母亲在孕早期感染流感，风险就会大大增加四倍，你知道这些病毒感染通常会在以后留下不好的东西，比如我们仍在了解很多关于长期 COVID 的知识以及可能存在的东西，甚至在最近的一篇论文中说，感染过 COVID 的人的糖尿病会升高，尽管我认为关于这一点仍然会有一些争论，以便疫苗可以摆脱呼吸道病原体。
说话人C 15:20
But you seriously think that universal vaccines like that could be developed absolutely.
但你认真地认为，像这样的通用疫苗绝对可以开发出来。
说话人B 15:24
I mean the gates foundation funds those things now we're off into my optimism about innovation and you know the improved understanding of how to do vaccines and how the immune system works and flu is tricky because different patients have different exposures to different types of flu the immune system has this huge bias the first flu that you see the rest of time your immune system wants to go after that and teaching it no this one too that full broad coverage it's actually easier for somebody who's。.
我的意思是，盖茨基金会资助了这些事情，现在我们开始对创新持乐观态度，你知道，对如何接种疫苗以及免疫系统如何运作的理解有所提高，流感很棘手，因为不同的患者接触不同类型的流感，免疫系统有这种巨大的偏见，你看到的第一种流感，其余时间你的免疫系统想要在那之后进行教学不，这个也是那么全面的广泛覆盖，对于那些人来说，它实际上更容易。
说话人B 15:56
Immunologically naive，and has never seen flu，but to do this eradication of flu we have to not just get young people we have to even get all the people even older who have their immune system state relative to flu is very complex，but yes，i believe that we can eradicate flu，we don't have the tools today eradication are so difficult，but i do think we can invent those tools and that we should have that in mind to send aspirational goal that we fund at least at the r and d level the i.
免疫学上天真，从未见过流感，但要根除流感，我们不仅要让年轻人，我们甚至要让所有免疫系统相对于流感处于较大状态的人，这是非常复杂的，但是，是的，我相信我们可以根除流感，我们今天没有根除工具，但我确实认为我们可以发明这些工具，我们应该牢记这一点发送我们至少在研发水平上资助的雄心勃勃的目标。
说话人C 16:30
The we've been talking about respiratory illnesses。.
我们一直在谈论呼吸系统疾病。。
说话人C 16:32
But there have been several instances in the twentieth century of Vector borne illnesses starting in one place，usually somewhere in Africa，then spreading around the world the things like Zika and west Nile if something as bad as Malaria，were to emerge in that way，how would we deal with.
但在 20 世纪，有几次媒介传播疾病的例子，从一个地方开始，通常是在非洲的某个地方，然后像寨卡病毒和西尼罗河这样的东西传播到世界各地，如果像疟疾这样严重的东西以这种方式出现，我们将如何应对。
说话人B 16:48
That yeah，so fortunately very few vectors have a global presence you have eighty's mosquitoes and you have anopheles mosquitoes things like these ticks and whiteflies that are sometimes spreaders they're fairly regionally confined，but i do think in the next decade we'll have these gene drive tools。.
是的，所以幸运的是，很少有媒介在全球范围内存在，你有八十年代的蚊子，你有按蚊，蚊子，像蜱虫和粉虱之类的东西，它们有时是传播者，它们被相当局限于区域，但我确实认为在未来十年内，我们将拥有这些基因驱动工具。
说话人B 17:09
Which will be extremely helpful to eradicate Malaria，and that could be used against any type of vector so i'm not super worried about the vector born diseases because of my optimism for gene.
这对根除疟疾非常有帮助，而且它可以用于对付任何类型的载体，所以我不太担心载体传播的疾病，因为我对基因持乐观态度。
说话人C 17:22
Drive if something like hiv were to emerge now would we spot it much earlier.
如果现在出现像艾滋病毒这样的东西，我们会更早地发现它吗？
说话人B 17:27
Because of sequencing yes，but nature designed this unbelievable latency thing that you get a little bit sick at the beginning and then you go for years usually for an adult six or seven years where your immune system is fighting slowly。.
因为测序，是的，但大自然设计了这种令人难以置信的潜伏期，一开始你会有点生病，然后你会持续数年，通常对于成年人来说，六七年，你的免疫系统正在缓慢地战斗。
说话人B 17:45
But surely a losing battle and so we hope that there aren't many like that today hopefully you have just random sampling sequencing，so that you would catch it a lot earlier，so.
但肯定是一场失败的战斗，所以我们希望今天没有很多这样的战斗，希望你只有随机抽样测序，这样你就能更早地发现它，所以。
说话人C 17:58
That i mean that it itself is the best piece of pandemic prevention do you like that we would no longer expect to see a pandemic sexually transmitted.
我的意思是，它本身就是预防大流行的最好的部分，你喜欢我们不再期望看到大流行通过性传播吗？
说话人B 18:06
Disease yes，if you're sampling correctly the s rate of spread of something that's sexual you would catch it early before it got global so you shouldn't have another hiv.
疾病是的，如果你正确地抽样了性事物的传播速度，你会在它传播到全球之前及早发现它，所以你不应该感染另一种艾滋病毒。
说话人C 18:18
Going back to the idea of germ。.
回到细菌的想法。.
说话人C 18:20
it's hor horrible to say it，but the world's attention is now on the idea of a pandemic respiratory disease。
说起来很可怕，但现在全世界的注意力都集中在了呼吸道疾病的流行性问题上。
说话人C 18:25
As it starts to drift away which seems to be happening at the moment political attention is gonna wonder it's probably gonna wonder quite fast particularly with certain of other events that are going on in the world how do you keep people focused on doing this long enough to set up your new organization get it going and launch it in a way that's irreversible.
随着它开始渐行渐远，目前似乎正在发生，政治注意力可能会很快产生疑问，特别是对于世界上正在发生的某些其他事件，你如何让人们专注于做这件事足够长的时间，以建立你的新组织，让它运转起来，并以一种不可逆转的方式启动它。
说话人B 18:46
I think hopefully for a generation and maybe two generations this pandemic and the tragedy of it will be very clear in people's mind and you know to talk about a germ a global surveillance set a billion a year and you know in a distributed way。.
我认为，希望在一代人，也许两代人中，这种大流行及其悲剧在人们的脑海中会非常清晰，你知道谈论一种细菌，全球监测每年设置 10 亿次，你知道以分布式的方式。
说话人B 19:39
increased r and d budgets of maybe ten to twenty billion a year and then a rededication to improving health systems which those numbers can be very large you know i think that will happen，i think we're just looking at these learning deficits and the depression and the indebtedness levels you know this thing not only did it kill tens of millions，but it had all these other negative effects so i don't think we'll lose sight of that very quickly，i'm a little surprised there's not more dialogue there is some debate okay。
每年增加十到二百亿的研发预算，然后重新致力于改善卫生系统，这些数字可能非常大，你知道，我认为这将会发生，我认为我们只是在研究这些学习缺陷、萧条和债务水平，你知道，这件事不仅杀死了数千万人，而且产生了所有其他负面影响，所以我认为我们不会输看到那一眼就很快了，我有点惊讶没有更多的对话还有一些争论好吧。
说话人C 20:08
how should we be ready for the next one and some discussion about country stepping up for that we stretched all the budgets so badly during the pandemic that money for normal global health things and for pandemic related things you know gonna be tough to find yeah that i think was the burden of my point that certainly there's a financial exhaustion in my own country and similar problems elsewhere it's very easy to say oh yes，we'll do this and then it just slips away。
我们应该如何为下一次会议做好准备，以及一些关于国家加紧的讨论，因为我们在大流行期间严重超出了所有预算，以至于用于正常全球卫生事务和与大流行相关的事情的资金很难找到，是的，我认为这是我观点的负担，我自己的国家肯定存在财政疲惫，其他地方也存在类似问题，这很容易说哦是的，我们就这样做，然后它就溜走了。
说话人B 20:38
i don't know how one keeps it front of mind while the apparatus is built up yeah，it's pretty cheap though i mean you know this is fourteen trillion in counting and you know a little bit of this cost is hidden because we just raise government indebtedness and the understanding on macroeconomics on how that makes us more fragile and how that gets paid back so people may not be feeling it fully，but when you talk about spending you know a billion a year on the global piece and tens of billions on the other piece you know。
我不知道在建立机器时如何把它放在首位，是的，它很便宜，尽管我的意思是你知道这是 14 万亿，你知道这其中有一点是隐藏的，因为我们只是增加了政府债务，以及对宏观经济的理解，即这如何使我们变得更加脆弱以及如何偿还，所以人们可能没有完全感受到它，但当你谈论你知道的，每年花十亿在全球的那块，在另一块你知道的那块上花几百亿。
说话人B 21:22
that's a thousand to one type return and this is not like most of global health where you're talking about deaths of people in far away countries low income countries that you know you don't see very often here you know people really had friends and family who died sadly long covid may provide a constant reminder of the problems of allowing a viral infection to spread to over half of the global population so if were to come back in five years time say and have another conversation what would you like to see in place that realistically could be in place by then well certainly the germ。
这是一千比一的回报，这不像大多数全球卫生部门那样，你谈论的是遥远国家的人们死亡，你知道你在这里并不经常看到的低收入国家，你知道人们确实有朋友和家人不幸去世，长期 COVID 可能会不断提醒人们允许病毒感染传播到全球一半以上人口的问题，所以如果五年后再回来，说再谈一次，你希望看到什么，到那时实际上可以到位，当然是细菌。
说话人B 22:05
team is the very concrete thing and it has huge benefits in terms of lives saved even in the years that there's not something you're stopping from becoming a pandemic the second thing would be to look at the rnd budgets you know did the us nih did they fund like an inhaled vaccine that blocks transmission oh throughout this epidemic we've been talking about hey，it's helpful to other people for you to get vaccinated well，that's only true to the degree that it blocks the infection which was way more limited once we had omicron in particular than we expected if we had vaccines that were perfect transmission blockers if。
团队是非常具体的东西，即使在没有阻止成为大流行的这些年里，它在挽救生命方面也有巨大的好处，第二件事是查看 RND 预算，你知道美国 NIH 是否像吸入疫苗一样资助，可以阻止传播哦，在整个流行病中，我们一直在谈论嘿，你接种疫苗对其他人有帮助嗯，这只有在它阻止感染的程度上才是正确的，特别是一旦我们感染了 omicron，感染就比我们预期的要有限得多，如果我们有完美的传播阻断剂疫苗，如果我们有这样的话。
说话人B 22:40
you were vaccinated you never get infected then you're not in a transmission chain and that allows you to knock the disease down so much faster and there is an indication that if you have normal vaccination and then you just inhale either an mrna or just a subunit protein some early stuff the foundation is funded looks like you get this mucosal protection and so like in the human challenge trials that the uk allows it looks like we'll be able to just adding that one thing will be so you would hope that within five years we have something like that yes。
你接种了疫苗，你永远不会被感染，那么你就不在传播链中，这可以让你更快地将疾病击低，并且有迹象表明，如果你接种了正常的疫苗，然后你只是吸入 mRNA 或只是一个亚基蛋白，基金会资助的一些早期东西看起来你得到了这种粘膜保护，就像在英国的人体挑战试验中一样允许看起来我们只能添加一件事，所以你希望在五年内我们有这样的东西，是的。
说话人B 22:44
i hope we have blockers and maybe you know we have fire drills。
我希望我们有阻挡者，也许你知道我们有消防演习。
说话人B 23:08
you know when i was a kid we even had nuclear weapons drills now those i wouldn't say would have saved that many lives and scared the hell out of us，i which may be good，cuz yeah our awareness that was a s scary thing was there but anyway germ team existing the drills the r and d，and the early stuff out of the r and d i would think would be the transmission blocking vaccines and。
你知道，当我还是个孩子的时候，我们甚至进行了核武器演习，现在我不会说那些会挽救那么多生命并吓坏我们的人，我这可能是件好事，因为是的，我们的意识是可怕的，但无论如何，细菌团队已经存在演习，即 R 和 D，以及 R 和 D 的早期内容，我认为会是阻止传播的疫苗和。
说话人B 23:44
maybe in a neat immune system stimulator that would work across all viral pathogens and one last question how hopeful are you this might actually all happen you know i'm an optimist and the cost involved you know is less than a new weapon system and i'd still say today exactly what i said in twenty fifteen that the greatest risk of say twenty million excess deaths the greatest risk is not a meteor，it's not a nuclear war it is the next pandemic and the steps to be ready for the next pandemic。
也许在一个对所有病毒病原体都有效、简洁的免疫系统刺激剂中，最后一个问题，你有多希望，这一切实际上可能发生，你知道，我是一个乐观主义者，你知道，所涉及的成本比新的武器系统还低，我今天仍然会说，正如我在《二十五世纪》所说的那样，最大的风险，比如说，两千万人超额死亡，最大的风险不是流星，它不是核战争是下一次大流行，也是为下一次大流行做准备的步骤。
说话人B 24:19
it's tens of billions of cost，but with lots of additional benefits to prevent trillions of dollars of economic damage and tens of billions of deaths so we don't have to be super rational to see this as a smart thing the cooperative elements of okay you know how do we come together to pay for it fortunately the rnd you don't need to coordinate globally but the germ thing you have to say is this the legitimate choice and all the data is gonna go there even at that early stage and are people gonna contribute to that and are you gonna allow those people to come in and look at disease。
这是数百亿的成本，但有很多额外的好处可以防止数万亿美元的经济损失和数百亿人的死亡，所以我们不必超级理性地认为这是一件聪明的事情，好吧，你知道我们如何团结起来支付它的合作元素，幸运的是，你不需要在全球范围内协调 RND，但你必须说的细菌是这样的即使在早期阶段，合法的选择和所有数据都会在那里，人们是否会为此做出贡献，您是否会允许这些人进来研究疾病。
说话人B 24:25
increases in your country and you know help the world figure out okay how scary is this？
在你的国家/地区增加，你知道帮助世界弄清楚，这有多可怕？
说话人B 24:32
so you know i can't guarantee it will happen，but it would be a pretty crazy world if it didn't i don't want to Bill Gates thank you very much thank you。
所以你知道我不能保证它会发生，但如果没有的话，那将是一个相当疯狂的世界，我不想比尔盖茨非常感谢你。
说话人A 24:42
I'm back with Jeff carr the economist's science and technology editor to reflect on the future of pandemic prevention Jeff it seems like a real it was a real burden to go to California to speak to Bill Gates still wasn't it.
我和经济学家的科技编辑杰夫·卡尔一起回来思考大流行预防的未来：杰夫，去加利福尼亚与比尔·盖茨交谈似乎是一个真实的负担，不是吗？
说话人C 24:53
I was dreadful yes，i.
我很可怕，是的，我。
说话人A 24:54
Would ha sounds like a fun interview.
听起来像是一次有趣的采访。
说话人C 24:57
It was great fun interview he's an interesting man to talk to.
这是一次非常有趣的采访，与他交谈起来很有趣。
说话人A 25:00
So let's dig into some of the things he said there are huge amounts of new ideas in what he's talking about things that we kind of discussed in the podcast and written the paper。.
因此，让我们深入研究一下他所说的一些事情，他所说的话中有大量新的想法，我们在播客中讨论过并写了论文。
说话人A 25:08
Before it's interesting to hear Bill Gates put them all together and he has a voice in a platform perhaps that many scientists even don't so it's important that he's saying these things and the germ idea this idea of this pandemic preparation unit in the world health organization let me just ask straightforwardly i mean do you think it's something that's gonna happen.
在听到比尔·盖茨将它们放在一起很有趣之前，他在一个平台上有发言权，也许许多科学家甚至没有，所以重要的是他说这些话和细菌想法，这个世界卫生组织大流行准备部门的想法，让我直接问一下，我的意思是，你认为这是将要发生的事情吗？
说话人C 25:28
Ha，i think it's probably about fifty i do worry that global attention has shifted very rapidly and all of diplomatic attention is now on Ukraine so there is a serious risk that this will go to the back burner if there was。.
哈，我认为大概是五十岁左右，我确实担心全球注意力已经转移得非常快，现在所有的外交注意力都集中在乌克兰身上，所以如果有的话，这很有可能被搁置。
说话人C 25:44
Another variant that's caused problems and of course it would come back to public attention so i think the question is whether it will remain front of mind in a sufficient number of politicians in sufficiently powerful countries for it to happen，but i would say there was a chance it would happen and certainly i'm sure mr gates will be lobbying for it to happen，and as you observed he does have some useful lobbying power particularly with the American government so，i would i be cautiously optimistic that might happen yeah.
另一个造成问题的变体，当然它会重新引起公众的关注，所以我认为问题是它是否会在足够强大的国家中保持足够多的政客的脑海中，以使其发生，但我想说它有可能发生，当然我确信盖茨先生会游说它发生，正如你观察到的那样，他确实有一些有用的游说能力特别是对于美国政府，我会谨慎乐观地认为这可能会发生。
说话人A 26:13
And so we've been reporting on the need for pandemic prevention for many years now and of。.
因此，多年来，我们一直在报道预防大流行的必要性。
说话人A 26:18
Course，now，there's lots of solid evidence about the impacts of pandemics in the form of much lived experience and data just stepping back from what Bill Gates is suggesting what do you think the future of pandemic prevention should look like what should people organizations institutions be focused on now.
当然，现在，有很多关于流行病影响的确凿证据，以大量生活经验和数据的形式出现，只是从比尔盖茨的建议中退后一步，你认为大流行预防的未来应该是什么样子，人民组织机构现在应该关注什么。
说话人C 26:36
I would actually as you might have gathered from my questions i would put a little more resource into looking into this idea of viral chatter you know where something comes into a human being evolves a bit goes back into the animal evolves a bit and comes back again and trying to preempt the transmission of viruses from other。.
实际上，正如您可能从我的问题中了解到的那样，我会投入更多的资源来研究这种病毒式聊天的想法，你知道，在哪里，某样东西进入人类，进化一点，回到动物体内，进化一点，然后再次回来，并试图预防病毒从其他人传播。
说话人C 26:56
animals to human beings they almost all start like this the new pathogens are almost always something that's come from another animal，they have to adapt to humans and some of them are better adapted to start with than others and the more chatter there is between the human beings and the animals the more likely you are to end up with something that will be pathogenic in people and the idea is that you might be able to spot these things happening and there is the example of hiv the pandemic that we've seen is caused by a virus that we have called hiv one which is a chimpanzee。
动物对人类，它们几乎都是这样开始的，新的病原体几乎总是来自另一种动物，它们必须适应人类，其中一些比其他动物更适应，人类和动物之间的喋喋不休越多，你就越有可能最终得到对人类致病的东西，这个想法是你可能会能够发现这些事情的发生，还有艾滋病毒的例子，我们看到的大流行是由一种我们称之为艾滋病毒的病毒引起的，那就是黑猩猩。
说话人C 27:32
virus there is another much more localized epidemic of hiv hiv two that comes from a monkey and then there are some very rare hiv's that have been detected in humans that haven't got going at all so if we'd been monitoring that part of west Africa back when these transmissions were taking place，which is back in the middle of the twentieth century，we might have seen the viral chatter between the other primates and humans and being able to do something about it much earlier。
病毒还有另一种更局部的艾滋病毒流行，即来自猴子的艾滋病毒二型，然后还有一些非常罕见的艾滋病毒在人类身上被检测到，但根本没有发生，所以如果我们在这些传播发生时监测西非的那个地区，也就是在 20 世纪中叶，我们可能会看到其他灵长类动物和人类之间的病毒喋喋不休并且能够更早地为此做点什么。
说话人C 28:02
So i would probably put more emphasis than he would on doing that sort of thing，but other than that i think his plan is a good one.
所以我可能会比他更强调做这种事情，但除此之外，我认为他的计划是一个很好的计划。
说话人A 28:10
I think i'd agree with you Jeff actually you talked to him about the global viral project didn't you and he kind of played down the importance of the work that those guys are doing or trying to do at least where they're trying to sequence as many virus genes as possible just to see what's out there because there's this enormous dark matter of viruses and potential viruses that can spill over and。.
我想我同意你的观点，杰夫，事实上，你和他谈到了全球病毒项目，不是吗，他有点淡化了那些人正在做或试图做的工作的重要性，至少他们正在尝试对尽可能多的病毒基因进行测序，只是为了看看那里有什么，因为有巨大的病毒暗物质和潜在的病毒可以溢出。
说话人A 28:31
just having that catalog and knowing what's where is quite interesting and he seems to sort of play that down as you'd need too many places to sort of do the monitoring i find that surprising simply because the idea of monitoring fits into the third strand of his ideas which is improve healthcare systems around the world i mean how do you do the monitoring it's to improve healthcare systems around the world especially in poorer places and then you would be doing what's monitoring anyway and the blood samples could be then also used to keep monitoring going and he also didn't mention much about rather than looking。
仅仅拥有该目录并知道在哪里是什么就非常有趣，他似乎有点淡化了这一点，因为你需要太多的地方来进行监测，我觉得这很令人惊讶，因为监测的想法符合他想法的第三条，即改善世界各地的医疗保健系统，我的意思是如何进行监测，特别是改善世界各地的医疗保健系统在较贫穷的地方，然后无论如何你都会做正在监测的事情，然后血液样本也可以用来继续监测，他也没有提到太多而不是看。
说话人A 29:02
At the viruses themselves just keep an eye out for all of the immunological markers in people's blood all over the world and then you can get some warning that something is happening if there's an outbreak somewhere the global immunological observatory which is another sort of massive project that's is a sort of early warning sign to future pandemics so i suppose these are kind of theoretical ideas aren't they.
在病毒本身，只要留意世界各地人们血液中的所有免疫标志物，然后你就会得到一些警告，如果某个地方爆发疫情，全球免疫学观察站，这是另一种大型项目，是未来大流行的早期预警信号，所以我想这些都是理论上的想法，不是吗？
说话人C 29:24
That's not a bad idea this is a theoretical idea but。.
这不是一个坏主意，这是一个理论上的想法，但是。
说话人C 29:27
I would have thought the problem with that would be that if you've got an immunological signal that you're seeing at a lot of places you probably got your pandemic already you could look for immunological traces in the same way that you look for viral chatter i mean you could look for unusual patterns of antibodies in the same way you look for viral dna and rna so it's not a silly idea.
我本以为这样做的问题在于，如果你在很多地方看到免疫学信号，你可能已经感染了大流行，你可以像寻找病毒喋喋不休一样寻找免疫学痕迹，我的意思是你可以像寻找病毒 DNA 和 RNA 一样寻找不寻常的抗体模式，所以这不是一个愚蠢的想法。
说话人A 29:45
And all of that is gonna be much easier given new diagnostics which Bill Gates was very optimistic about he's a technology man so technology probably excites him so let's talk about that how important do you think。.
考虑到比尔盖茨非常乐观的新诊断，所有这些都会容易得多，他是一个技术人，所以技术可能会让他兴奋，所以让我们谈谈你认为有多重要。
说话人A 29:54
These rapidly evolving surveillance technologies are you know cheaper genomic sequencing better blood sampling，etc.
这些快速发展的监测技术是你知道的，更便宜的基因组测序、更好的血液采样等。
说话人C 30:00
Absolutely crucial because that's the only way you're gonna catch these things early and if you don't catch them early it's the way you that you're gonna pick up early on the evolution of new strains because one thing we've learned from covid is that natural selection really does work so you could almost think of the monitoring and licking in the butt of new strains as being a micro version of stopping the pathogen getting going in the first place。.
绝对至关重要，因为这是及早发现这些东西的唯一方法，如果你不及早发现它们，这就是你尽早了解新毒株进化的方式，因为我们从新冠疫情中学到的一件事是，自然选择确实有效，所以你几乎可以认为监测和舔舐新毒株的屁股是阻止病原体的微观版本首先开始。.
说话人C 30:23
So for that you have to have effective rapid diagnosis，absolutely，it's crucial.
因此，为此，您必须进行有效的快速诊断，这绝对是至关重要的。
说话人A 30:27
And it's something that's possible now we actually hearing you talking about hiv in the evolution of that and how it ended up in humans，you were saying that you if we've been tracking this stuff in the twentieth century of course，we couldn't have done really.
现在我们实际上听到你谈论艾滋病毒的进化过程以及它如何最终在人类身上传播，这是有可能的，你说，如果我们在 20 世纪一直在追踪这些东西，当然，我们不可能真的做到。
说话人C 30:38
No i don't think people are negligent we didn't have the tools，but now we do have the tools，but you can go back into tissue samples that were taken way before hiv was identified either symptomatically or as a virus and see that。.
不，我不认为人们疏忽了，我们没有工具，但现在我们确实有工具，但你可以回到在艾滋病毒被发现之前采集的组织样本，无论是症状还是病毒，看看。
说话人C 30:50
There are tissue samples that were taken in various parts of Africa，where the virus is present.
有组织样本是在非洲各地采集的，那里存在病毒。
说话人A 30:53
And what about this inhaled transmission blocking vaccine，i found that fascinating i've not heard about that.
那么这种吸入传播阻断疫苗呢，我发现这很有趣，我从未听说过。
说话人C 30:58
No i could confess i haven't it's a very interesting idea i mean.
不，我可以承认我没有，我的意思是这是一个非常有趣的想法。
说话人A 31:02
It sounds theoretically possible to have some sort of mucosal defense against something i mean this is the kind of technology which is sort of goes beyond all the stuff we've heard about in terms of vaccines and things and you know having some way of blocking infections at least for the most vulnerable would be fantastic.
从理论上讲，对某些东西进行某种粘膜防御听起来是可能的，我的意思是，这种技术在某种程度上超出了我们在疫苗和其他方面听说过的所有东西，你知道，至少对于最脆弱的人来说，有某种方法来阻止感染会很棒。
说话人C 31:16
Is it would yeah。.
是的吗？.
说话人C 31:16
Yes，okay.
是的，好吧。
说话人A 31:18
Well finally i mean this is a question we've been asking for the past two years all the way through the pandemic and i imagine we'll continue to ask more in the future do you think that the world's learned enough on covid to actually avoid another devastating.
好吧，最后，我的意思是，这是我们在过去两年中一直在问的问题，我想我们未来会继续问更多：你认为世界对新冠疫情的了解是否足够多，可以真正避免另一场毁灭性事件。
说话人C 31:30
Pandemic，ha，i'd like to hope，it has as i said i think it depends all human beings have only a finite attention and the question is whether the final attention of the people who have to make the relevant decisions to do this sort of thing is absorbed by other matters i think it probably comes down to that。.
大流行，哈，我想希望，正如我所说，它已经有，我认为这取决于所有人只有有限的注意力，问题是那些必须做出相关决定才能做这种事情的人的最终注意力是否被其他事情所吸收，我认为这可能归结为这个。
说话人C 31:51
i think if the attention of the relevant politicians can be kept focused on this to the point where you set the ball rolling you know once you set the ball rolling and given some sort of guarantee that would be bankrolled then it could be picked up by people whose focus is elsewhere so i think the next six to twelve months will either have something in a year's time that's starting to move and create institutions that will be needed to do this or it'll get forgotten about that would be my prediction i'm not gonna say which it will be。
我认为，如果相关政客的注意力能够一直集中在这一点上，以至于你开始行动，你知道，一旦你开始行动，并给予某种资金保证，那么它就会被那些关注在其他地方的人所接受，所以我认为接下来的六到十二个月，要么在一年的时间里，就会有一些事情开始发生变化并创建需要这样做的机构，否则它就会被遗忘，这将是我的预测，我不会说会是哪一个。
说话人C 32:21
But my prediction is that if it's not done within a year it won't be on at all.
但我的预测是，如果一年内不完成，它根本不会开播。
说话人A 32:25
Jeff that's been very interesting thank you very much for joining me today.
杰夫，这很有趣，非常感谢你今天加入我。
说话人C 32:29
Thank you alok.
谢谢你。
说话人A 32:31
Thank you for listening to babidge and you can hear more about how to tackle global diseases by scrolling back to an episode from last month in which we looked at how to eradicate malaria and we do talk about the promise of gene drive technologies in that show so go and give it a listen it's called how do you solve a problem like Malaria barrage。.
感谢您收听 babidge，您可以通过滚动回上个月的一集来了解更多关于如何应对全球疾病的信息，其中我们研究了如何根除疟疾，我们确实在该节目中谈到了基因驱动技术的前景，所以去听听它的名字是如何解决像疟疾弹幕这样的问题。
说话人A 32:51
is produced by Jason Hossack and mixed by Niko roffast the executive producer is Hannah Marino，i'm Allan jar and in London always on the lookout for the next pathogenic threat this is the economist。
由杰森·霍萨克（Jason Hossack）制作，尼科·罗法斯特（Niko roffast）混音，执行制片人是汉娜·马里诺（Hannah Marino），我是艾伦·贾尔（Allan jar），在伦敦一直在寻找下一个致病性威胁，这就是经济学家。