You know, in college, we'd show up somewhere and be like, this is my wife, like, here's how we met, we're in love. And people would just assume we actually meant we were in love. And I think we kind of were at the time. But just not in a romantic, I mean, yes, in a romantic way. Not in a sexual way.
你知道，在大學裡，我們會在某個地方出現，然後說：「這是我老婆，我們是這樣認識的，我們相愛了。」人們會以為我們真的相愛了。我想當時我們確實有點那樣。但不是以浪漫的方式，我的意思是，是的，是以浪漫的方式。但不是以性愛的方式。
No. None of the voices in this series are ongoing patients of Esther Perel. Each episode of Where Should We Begin is a one-time counseling session. For the purposes of maintaining confidentiality, names and some identifiable characteristics have been removed. But their voices and their stories are real.
不。本系列中沒有任何聲音是艾斯特·沛瑞爾（Esther Perel）的長期病患。每一集《我們該從何說起》（Where Should We Begin）都是一次性的諮詢。為了維護保密性，姓名和一些可識別的特徵已被移除。但他們的聲音和他們的故事都是真實的。
In this following session, we discuss assault. And I want you to know this before you listen. The story of a friendship. Two girls from very different backgrounds become confidantes. They experience a love story together, a platonic love story, but a love story nevertheless. And they become each other's besties for four years, the entire college duration.
在接下來的這段內容中，我們要討論的是攻擊。在您聆聽之前，我希望您先了解這點：這是一個關於友誼的故事。兩個來自截然不同背景的女孩成為了知己。她們共同經歷了一段愛情故事，一段柏拉圖式的愛情故事，但無論如何，它仍是一段愛情故事。她們在大學四年期間，也就是整個大學生涯中，成為了彼此最好的朋友。
Being able to ask for help and receive help, I think, is really foundational to our relationship and our friendship and the caretaking that happens between the two of us.
我認為，能夠尋求幫助並接受幫助，對於我們的關係、我們的友誼以及我們兩人之間的照護，都是非常基礎的。
They're there for each other, they're like the foundation for each of them to then go into the world and do their own explorations. And so then the question becomes, how does a friendship like that evolve after college? When their life changes, when partners enter into this story, or when they start to make choices that take them away from each other. And it becomes a friendship where the expectations doesn't match the reality anymore.
他們彼此扶持，他們是彼此的基礎，讓他們能夠走向世界，進行自己的探索。所以問題就來了，像這樣的友誼在大學畢業後會如何發展？當他們的生活改變時，當伴侶進入這個故事時，或者當他們開始做出讓他們彼此疏遠的選擇時。然後這段友誼就會變成期望與現實不符的關係。
It's true that we have been experiencing different realities of our friendship in the last year, and maybe a little more. But I don't want to just fill in the empty space that you have. I want you to text me and say, Hey, I haven't seen you. My boyfriend's out tonight. I would love to watch a movie. Do you want to come over?
的確，在過去一年，或許更久一點，我們友誼的現實狀況有所不同。但我不想只是填補妳的空缺。我希望妳能傳訊息給我說：「嘿，我好久沒看到妳了。我男朋友今晚不在家。我很想看電影。妳要不要過來？」
Right. But I haven't wanted to do that.
對。但我一直不想這麼做。
We used to be everything for each other. And now we barely talk. Is it that other people have replaced us? That we've basically completely grown apart? Was I really that important?
我們曾經是彼此的一切。而現在我們幾乎不說話了。是不是有其他人取代了我們？我們是不是基本上已經完全疏遠了？我真的那麼重要嗎？
I didn't always feel like valued or like fully respected. And because I don't say things in the moment, I will start to weave, you know, I'll start to crochet a little narrative.
我並不總是覺得自己被重視或被完全尊重。因為我不會當下說出來，我會開始編織，你知道，我會開始編織一個小小的故事。
And so are we here to mourn our relationship, to say goodbye to each other, to realize that we will have accompanied each other in a most important phase of our life, one that we will never forget? Or do we have a chance to continue to be part of each other's lives? And that is a question that many of us have had to confront. Can I suggest something? It will be okay? How about I meet the people before I meet the problem? Because often people come here because there's a situation, problem or not, but there's a situation they want to work through, and there's something about a problem that is constricting. You kind of narrow around the problem, when in fact, you're much broader and bigger than that as people, and so is probably your relationship. And I would love to just meet you, meet you, hear about your origin story. I understood something's happened. It's not generally that complicated in friendship to think, what are the things that can go wrong? Tell me about if I met you separately, as is likely sometimes to happen, and I sat on the plane next to you, and then I sit on the plane next to you, who am I meeting? Who, you know, tell me a bit.
所以我們是在這裡哀悼我們的關係，向彼此道別，意識到我們在生命中最重要的階段曾相互陪伴，一個我們永遠不會忘記的階段嗎？還是我們有機會繼續成為彼此生命中的一部分？這是我們許多人必須面對的問題。我能提個建議嗎？會沒事的，好嗎？不如我先認識人，再認識問題？因為人們來到這裡通常是因為有一個情況，無論是不是問題，但他們想解決一個情況，而問題往往是具有限制性的。你會圍繞著問題打轉，但事實上，作為一個人，你比那更廣闊、更宏大，你的關係可能也是如此。我只是想認識你，認識你，聽聽你的起源故事。我知道發生了一些事。在友誼中，要思考「什麼會出錯」通常沒那麼複雜。告訴我，如果我分別遇到你們，就像有時可能會發生的那樣，我坐在飛機上你旁邊，然後我坐在飛機上你旁邊，我會遇到誰？你知道，跟我說說。
I moved to the United States when I was six. I was born in Buenos Aires.
我六歲的時候搬到美國。我出生在布宜諾斯艾利斯。
No accent. 沒有口音。
No accent, no. I was very young. I would say my brother who is nine has slightly more of an accent, but only if you know. My dad was a pilot for his whole career, so he was away a lot, and my mom was an architect before she had us and then stayed home with us, especially after we moved because my dad would be away, and we didn't have the whole community that we had back in Buenos Aires. Yeah, I think even though it was such a small portion of my life that I lived there, my parents are very much from there and all my family is from there. We don't have American family, we're all Argentine. So I think it has played a significant cultural role.
沒有口音，沒有。我那時候很小。我會說我九歲的弟弟口音稍微重一點，但只有你仔細聽才聽得出來。我爸一輩子都是飛行員，所以他經常不在家，我媽在生我們之前是建築師，然後就待在家裡照顧我們，尤其是在我們搬家之後，因為我爸會不在家，我們也沒有像在布宜諾諾斯艾利斯那樣的整個社群。對，我想即使我在那裡生活只佔我生命中很小一部分，但我父母都是那裡的人，我所有的家人也都是那裡的人。我們沒有美國親戚，我們都是阿根廷人。所以我認為它在文化上扮演了重要的角色。
Say one more line about that.
再多說一句。
I was raised by like Argentine people, but I am an American girl or like that's how I see myself.
我是在阿根廷人的扶養下長大的，但我是一個美國女孩，或者說，我是這樣看待自己的。
And when you say that, I'm raised by Argentine people and that means or that looks like?
當你說「我是在阿根廷人的扶養下長大的」，那代表什麼？或者說，那看起來像什麼？
Very sort of emotional, openly, at least in my experience of my Argentine people. Not much beating around the bush, like kind of just saying things directly. I think that they had a different level of sensitivity to certain issues than perhaps some American parents would have. Like my brother and I were diagnosed with anxiety much, much later in life, even though I think it was pretty prominent when we were kids. Not because my parents don't like believe in it. I think they just are like, I don't know, I think for a while they thought it was maybe a construction or like.
至少以我對阿根廷人的經驗來說，他們非常感性，很直接。不太拐彎抹角，就是直接說出來。我覺得他們對某些問題的敏感度，可能跟一些美國父母不太一樣。像我跟我哥很晚才被診斷出焦慮症，雖然我覺得我們小時候就蠻明顯的。不是因為我爸媽不相信，我覺得他們就是，我不知道，我覺得有一段時間他們可能覺得那是一種建構，或是像。
Part of life. 生活的一部分。
Yeah, because I look at them and my dad is one of the most anxious people I've ever met.
對，因為我看著他們，我爸是我見過最焦慮的人之一。
How old are you? 你幾歲？
I'm 27. 我 27 歲。
Both of you? Same age? Yeah. What of this Argentinian culture lives in you? Because you say they're the Argentinians and I'm the American girl.
你們兩個？同年齡？對。阿根廷文化在你們身上體現了什麼？因為你說他們是阿根廷人，我是美國女孩。
Yeah. 對。
Is that such a flat statement?
這會是很直接的說法嗎？
No. I think that looking the way I look, which is white, brunette, blue eyes, and my name doesn't really ring Hispanic in any way, I think sometimes it's important for me to know that I'm not just from Connecticut because then I feel very reduced to whatever someone thinks about Connecticut. I speak Spanish with my family. That's my first language. And there's definitely a version of me that is Argentine. But I don't get to access her very much because I mostly spend my time here.
不會。我覺得以我的外表，白人、深褐色頭髮、藍眼睛，而且我的名字聽起來一點也不像拉丁裔，有時候我覺得讓大家知道我不是只來自康乃狄克州很重要，因為那樣我會覺得自己被簡化成別人對康乃狄克州的任何刻板印象。我跟家人講西班牙語，那是我的母語。而且我確實有阿根廷人的一面，但我很少能展現出來，因為我大部分時間都在這裡。
Right. But you are also saying different parts of me come to the front in each language and in each country.
對。但你也在說，我不同的一面會在不同的語言和國家中展現出來。
Definitely. 確實。
Yeah. 對。
So grew up in suburban Connecticut, went to college in Canada, and met Emily there.
所以我在康乃狄克州的郊區長大，然後去加拿大讀大學，在那裡認識了艾蜜莉。
So you both were actually kind of what they call foreign students.
所以你們兩個其實都算是所謂的留學生。
Yes. 對。
Yeah. 對。
I grew up in the suburbs of Philadelphia, and both of my parents also grew up in that area. My dad and his brother and all my cousins all went to the same high school that I went to, and it was a pretty competitive and highly ranked public school. And I really poured myself into academics, in part because I liked the ideas and the knowledge and the conversations and also because school is a comforting structure of progress and achievement and feedback.
我在費城郊區長大，我爸媽也都在那個地區長大。我爸、他哥哥和我所有的表兄弟姊妹都讀過我讀的那所高中，那是一所競爭激烈、排名很高的公立學校。我真的把所有精力都投入到學業上，一部分是因為我喜歡那些想法、知識和對話，也因為學校是一個能帶來進步、成就和回饋的舒適架構。
And because you were bored.
而且因為你很無聊。
And because I was bored.
因為我很無聊。
You didn't like living there.
你不喜歡住在那裡。
I didn't like living there. I didn't like living in the suburbs. Had friends, but certainly wasn't thriving socially or... I knew that high school wasn't gonna be my favorite part of life and really wanted to flee, to like go elsewhere. You knew you were gonna leave. Yeah. Wanted to go for college and study abroad, but my parents were like, please stay on this continent. So I went to Montreal, which was only an eight hour drive from home. But it really satisfied my craving for being an international student, being around other international students, being in a city, living independently.
我不喜歡住在那裡。我不喜歡住在郊區。我有朋友，但社交方面肯定稱不上活躍，或者說……我知道高中不會是我人生中最喜歡的階段，我真的很想逃離，想去別的地方。你知道你會離開。是的。我想去讀大學，然後出國留學，但我父母說：「拜託，留在這個大陸上吧。」所以我去了蒙特婁，那裡離家只有八小時車程。但它真的滿足了我對成為國際學生、與其他國際學生相處、身處城市、獨立生活的渴望。
Are you the first one of the generations to leave?
你是家族裡第一個離開家鄉的嗎？
Yeah. Both of my parents went to college, but both stayed local. I think my leaving my hometown was feeding that urge and that desire for distance and change and diversity in a way that I did not have growing up in very wealthy white suburbs. And then in our freshman year dorm, on our floor, there were people from maybe seven or eight different countries.
對。我爸媽都讀過大學，但他們都留在當地。我覺得我離開家鄉，是在滿足我對距離、改變和多元化的渴望和需求，這是我在非常富裕的白人郊區長大時所沒有的。然後我們大一宿舍的樓層裡，住著來自大概七、八個不同國家的人。
Yeah. 對。
And... 然後…
British, French. 英國人、法國人。
Yeah. 對。
Canadian, American. 加拿大人、美國人。
Exactly. And I loved it. I felt stimulated. I felt stimulated. I felt challenged and stretched without being competitive.
沒錯。我很喜歡。我感覺受到啟發。我感覺受到啟發。我感覺受到挑戰和拓展，但沒有競爭性。
Is it because in high school, you somewhat walked around with the idea of, I'm not like you. I have other aspirations. I want more. I want to expand. I'm curious. Whereas when you arrive to college, you watch and see all these people from all these different parts of the world, and you say, my people, I am like you. You too are the seekers. You too are the travelers. You too wanted more. And therefore, there's less of a need to say, I'm better, I'm different.
是不是因為在高中時，你多少抱持著一種「我跟你們不一樣」的想法？我有其他的抱負，我想要更多，我想要拓展，我充滿好奇。然而當你進入大學後，你看到來自世界各地的人，然後你會說：「我的同伴，我跟你們一樣。你們也是追求者。你們也是旅行者。你們也想要更多。」因此，就比較不需要說「我比較好，我與眾不同」。
I want something else than all of you.
我想要一些跟你們都不一樣的東西。
Well, strangely, I wouldn't put myself in that bucket. I got to school and all that freedom that you loved and craved, I was so terrified and overwhelmed by. And I think that's why we became...
嗯，說也奇怪，我不會把自己歸類到那一類。我上學的時候，你所熱愛和渴望的所有自由，都讓我感到非常害怕和不知所措。我想這就是為什麼我們變成…
We had very different experiences in our first year. And so knew each other, technically lived on the same floor, but...
我們第一年的經歷非常不同。所以我們認識，嚴格來說住在同一層樓，但是…
Never really spoke. 從來沒有真正說過話。
We became close because we both decided to live with our mutual friend. And the three of us then were going to look for an apartment. And the first time you and I ever hung out one on one was to tour apartments together. So it really wasn't until living together that we became friends and developed our...
我們因為都決定要跟我們共同的朋友住在一起，所以變得親近。然後我們三個人那時候打算要找一間公寓。你跟我第一次單獨出去玩，就是一起去看公寓。所以我們真的是直到住在一起之後才變成朋友，然後發展出我們的…
And like a little into living together. Yeah. I remember that first month being like...
然後大概住在一起一小段時間。對。我記得第一個月份的時候，我心裡想…
Who is this girl? 這女生是誰啊？
I was like, who is this girl? She doesn't like me. And our third roommate is a nightmare. And I have to move out. And like, what did I do?
我心裡想，這女生是誰啊？她不喜歡我。然後我們的第三個室友是個惡夢。我必須搬出去。然後，我到底做了什麼？
Yeah. 對。
And then? 然後呢？
The night. 夜晚。
Oh, the night. 喔，夜晚。
Yeah. Emily had something happen while I was back home. I was sleeping and she was out with her friends and came home and woke me up and she was like weeping. She had gotten really triggered by something that a friend had said. And I got up out of bed. It was like probably two in the morning.
對。艾蜜莉在我回家的時候發生了一些事。我當時在睡覺，她和朋友出去玩，然後回家把我叫醒，她當時在哭。她被一個朋友說的話深深地觸動了。我從床上起來，大概是凌晨兩點。
And you had your first friendship interaction.
然後你有了第一次的友誼互動。
Yeah. 對。
Right? 對吧？
Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting retelling this story. So the thing that happened is the summer after my first year, we had moved into our apartment and I was walking home one night after going out with friends. It was warm and about a block and a half from our apartment, a man had been following me and jumped me and started beating me. And I hadn't known he was following me and I didn't know who he was and I didn't really know what was happening. And some stranger happened to be walking by and sort of shoot him off and grab my hand and we ran to my apartment and called the police. And, you know, part of the story is that this man happened to call the police on himself after it happened. He is on the spectrum and had been at a strip club or something and was upset that he never got women. And so went out looking and I just happened to walk by. And so referring to this night, I had been out at a party and something about someone leaving felt like they shouldn't be walking home alone. It triggered that like there's danger and I can't control it feeling for me. And I came home and was really tearful and couldn't stop crying and knew I needed help. And so woke you up and you were like, here's what we're gonna do. You're gonna smoke some weed. We're gonna watch TV. We're gonna hang out and then you're gonna go to bed. And having someone take care of the situation, being able to ask for help and receive that kind of help, I think is really foundational to our relationship and our friendship and the caretaking that happens between the two of us.
對。對。重新講這個故事很有趣。所以發生的事情是，我大一結束的那個夏天，我們搬進了公寓，有一天晚上我跟朋友出去玩後走回家。天氣很暖和，離我們公寓大約一個半街區的地方，一個男人一直跟蹤我，然後跳出來襲擊我，開始毆打我。我當時不知道他跟蹤我，我也不知道他是誰，我也不太清楚發生了什麼事。然後一個陌生人剛好路過，就把他趕走，然後抓住我的手，我們跑回我的公寓並報警。你知道，這個故事的一部分是，這個男人在事發後自己報警了。他有自閉症，當時在脫衣舞俱樂部之類的，因為從來沒有女人而感到沮喪。所以就出去找，而我剛好路過。所以提到那天晚上，我當時在一個派對上，有人離開時，我感覺他們不應該獨自走回家。這觸發了我那種「有危險，我無法控制」的感覺。我回到家後，非常想哭，止不住眼淚，知道我需要幫助。所以我把你叫醒，你說：「我們要這樣做。你要抽點大麻。我們要看電視。我們要一起玩，然後你再去睡覺。」有人處理這種情況，能夠尋求幫助並得到那種幫助，我認為這對我們的關係、我們的友誼以及我們兩人之間的照顧關係來說，是非常基礎的。
Very beautiful. And I'm thinking also about how just before you talked about how much you value structure. And she basically offered you structure, clarity, and calmness, which is probably one of the most important things to do in a moment of crisis. Yeah. I understood immediately that this was a friendship on stand by, and that it wasn't clear if it was going to have a second wind, or if it was going to continue to wither. But I also wanted to learn about the friendship first, before I would listen about the friendship crisis. And I meet two women and they could have just been roommates. But then there is, as they say together, in unison, that night. The night that kind of sealed the friendship. Those of us who have met that person and who have had that experience, it's unique. And it is a kind of a coup de foudre of falling in love instantly. And they have a complementarity. It's not just one taking care of the other. In fact, they each have their strengths. They each lift the other. They're the safe haven that you come home to in the evening and you go back out into the world.
非常美。我也在想，你剛才談到你多麼重視結構。而她基本上為你提供了結構、清晰和冷靜，這可能是在危機時刻最重要的事情之一。是的。我立刻明白這是一段待命的友誼，不確定它是否會有第二次機會，或者是否會繼續枯萎。但我也想先了解這段友誼，然後再聽關於友誼危機的事情。我遇到兩個女人，她們可能只是室友。但正如她們異口同聲地說，那一晚。那一晚似乎確立了這段友誼。我們這些遇到過那個人並有過那種經歷的人，這是獨特的。這是一種一見鍾情的感覺。她們之間有互補性。不只是一方照顧另一方。事實上，她們各有優勢。她們互相扶持。她們是你在晚上回家時的安全港，然後你再回到這個世界。
I wouldn't say that the caregiving is all in one direction. I think part of what we would joke about when we became friends, because we became, after that night, we were up together every night talking, we were having dinner together, we were watching shows together. We basically started dating, but not in a romantic, I mean, yes, in a romantic way, not in a sexual way. We never slept together, and that wasn't an element of our relationship, but very quickly we were like, all right, so you're like, and I think being in a different country was part of that, right? You are my person, you're my emergency contact, you are my roommate, you are my built-in plus one date to whatever, you are my sounding board, but both ways. I think I struggled with some depression and feeling really lonely and isolated, and that manifested in not going to school a lot, which I don't know if my parents know about that, but I often didn't go to school in my first year and really, really...
我不會說照顧是單向的。我想我們成為朋友時會開玩笑說，因為在那晚之後，我們每晚都一起熬夜聊天，一起吃晚餐，一起看節目。我們基本上開始約會，但不是浪漫的，我的意思是，是的，是浪漫的，但不是性方面的。我們從未發生關係，那也不是我們關係的一部分，但很快我們就覺得，好吧，所以你就像，我想在異國他鄉是其中一個原因，對吧？你是我的人，你是我的緊急聯絡人，你是我的室友，你是我的固定伴侶，你是我的意見交流對象，但都是雙向的。我想我曾與一些憂鬱症搏鬥，感到非常孤獨和被孤立，這表現為不常去學校，我不知道我父母是否知道這件事，但我第一年經常不去學校，而且真的，真的...
Interesting, you just got closer to the mic as you started to...
有趣，你開始…的時候，就更靠近麥克風了。
Sorry, mom and dad. 抱歉，爸爸媽媽。
Well, I'm addressing them. That one's for them. I learned a lot at school and it wasn't all in school. That's what I'll say. Emily was someone who was structured, did her readings.
嗯，我正在跟他們說。這個是給他們的。我在學校學到很多，而且不只在學校學到。我會這麼說。艾蜜莉是個有條理的人，會讀書。
I only ever always went to class.
我總是只去上課。
Always went to class, knew how to get things done, and I was like, hey, come and learn how to smoke out of this bong, and I'm going to make you some cookies, and we're going to watch TV. I think that at the time, that's what we both needed. We needed someone else to help us with the thing we weren't so good at.
總是去上課，知道怎麼把事情搞定，然後我就說，嘿，來學怎麼用這個水煙斗抽菸，我會幫你做些餅乾，然後我們會看電視。我想那時候，那是我們兩個都需要的。我們需要別人來幫助我們處理我們不那麼擅長的事情。
Yeah. Then when you ended college, you stayed in touch, you?
對。然後你大學畢業後，你們還有保持聯絡，對吧？
Well, this is where the trouble begins because I begin to have a lot of feelings and can't figure out how to share them, and so then I hold on to them. I would say the end of college, we experienced very differently and I was very angry with her.
嗯，這就是麻煩的開始，因為我開始有很多感受，卻不知道該如何分享，所以我就一直憋著。我會說大學畢業時，我們經歷了非常不同的事情，我對她非常生氣。
I did not know. I had made other friends.
我不知道。我已經交了其他朋友。
Meaning that she continues to make you cookies and to roll the bong and to-
意思是她繼續為你做餅乾、捲大麻菸，然後——
Kind of. I mean, I was also busier.
有點。我的意思是，我也比較忙。
I mean, it's that invisible?
我是說，它有那麼隱形嗎？
Well, to the same extent that we had always had different interests and different friend groups and different hobbies and activities, we both became more involved in our separate worlds. And so I didn't necessarily notice your distance as being about me, so much as you were busy with your own things and I was busy with my own things. And so we graduated, we moved out, you know, we left Montreal, which was heartbreaking for me at least.
嗯，就像我們一直以來都有不同的興趣、不同的朋友圈、不同的嗜好和活動一樣，我們都更投入各自的世界。所以我並沒有特別注意到你的疏遠是針對我，而是你忙著自己的事，我也忙著自己的事。所以我們畢業了，搬出去了，你知道，我們離開了蒙特婁，這對我來說至少是令人心碎的。
I was happy to leave. I also think I should mention and I don't actually think that this was so crucial, but Emily did have a boyfriend that final year, which we had not had before either of us.
我很樂意離開。我也覺得我應該提一下，雖然我其實不覺得這有多關鍵，但艾蜜莉在最後一年確實交了男朋友，這在我們之前都沒有過。
That hadn't been part of the dynamic. Yeah.
這以前不是我們之間會有的互動。對。
So I think a lot of the like quiet, like chilling of like smoking or watching TV or whatever, you were now doing some of us.
所以我覺得很多那種安靜的、放鬆的，像是抽菸、看電視之類的活動，現在變成我們其中一些人在做。
With other people. Yeah. So I ended up moving to Chicago and I moved at the same time as a gaggle of Olivia's best friends from high school also moved. And so I had met some of these people through you, and they quickly became my community in Chicago. And you look from afar in New York where it's really expensive, and you don't have a lot of friends or community, and you're saying, wait, all my friends are hanging out without me. So you come and move to Chicago and move in with me. So that's my, I guess, two-year arc.
跟其他人。對。所以我最後搬到芝加哥，而我搬家的時候，剛好有一群 Olivia 高中最好的朋友也搬了。所以我透過你認識了其中一些人，他們很快就成了我在芝加哥的社群。而你在紐約從遠處看，那裡物價很高，你沒有很多朋友或社群，你心想，等等，我所有的朋友都在沒有我的情況下出去玩。所以你來芝加哥，跟我一起住。所以這就是我，我想，兩年的發展。
And you move in together in Chicago with a third roommate.
然後你們在芝加哥跟第三個室友一起住。
But the main idea is you reestablish your domestic life.
但主要想法是，你重新建立你的家庭生活。
Yes. And at this point, I have a new boyfriend, and you arrive.
對。這時候，我有了新男友，然後你來了。
Like my boyfriend and I broke up in the car outside of Chicago. So I was like fresh, fresh, fresh off a breakup.
就像我男朋友和我在芝加哥郊外的車上分手了。所以我當時是剛、剛、剛分手。
Yeah. 對。
It's interesting, right? This friendship, I mean, this is probably true for many, right? It's the two of us, the three of us, the four of us, us with the gang, me with your gang, me looking at you with my gang. And the number of different constellations here and every time, it changes the dynamic.
這很有趣，對吧？這種友誼，我的意思是，這對很多人來說可能都是真的，對吧？是我們兩個人，我們三個人，我們四個人，我們和幫派在一起，我跟你的幫派在一起，我帶著我的幫派看著你。這裡有許多不同的組合，每次都會改變動態。
Oh, and it keeps going. That keeps happening.
喔，然後它還在繼續。這種事一直發生。
The platicans, you're going to tell me, okay? More years.
那些政客，你會告訴我，好嗎？更多年。
Well, so those two years, I sort of saw a little bit differently. I graduated college and I was really mad at you. The most like salient of which.
嗯，所以那兩年，我有點不一樣的看法。我大學畢業了，我真的很生你的氣。其中最明顯的。
What? 什麼？
I started to feel the inklings of something that I think I still feel to this day and is probably the main thing I want to talk to you about because it's the thing I've never been able to talk to you about. I didn't always feel like valued or like fully respected. And again, because I don't say things in the moment, I will start to take like little pieces and I like start to weave, you know, I start to crochet a little narrative for myself with all these different like small events, little thing you said, other tiny thing you didn't do or, you know, whatever.
我開始感覺到一些東西的萌芽，我想我至今仍有這種感覺，這可能是我最想跟你談論的事情，因為這是我從未能夠跟你談論的事情。我並不總是覺得自己被重視或被完全尊重。而且，因為我不會當下說出來，我會開始擷取一些小片段，然後我會開始編織，你知道，我會為自己編織一個小小的敘事，用所有這些不同的微小事件，你說過的小事情，你沒做的其他微小事情，或者，你知道，諸如此類。
Beading. Yeah. Taking all the beads. Right.
串珠。對。把所有的珠子都拿走。對。
So at the end of college, you graduate the day before me and leave with your family. And that night, I had a big party at our apartment with a bunch of our friends. We stayed up super late, got super drunk. And the next day, I was like very hung over and had to move out of this apartment. And she was already gone. And when my parents got there and I was like throwing up, they were like, okay, I guess we have to do all of this. And as they like started doing it, I was like, oh, there's actually so much to be done. Like it was two years of an apartment that then like my hung over us. And like my parents had to like clean up. And that felt very frustrating. That felt like I was not valued, right? Like we didn't do that together. We didn't like plan ahead of time. But it was graduation. So whatever. We then go on a trip to Argentina.
所以大學畢業時，妳比我早一天畢業，然後跟家人離開了。那天晚上，我在我們的公寓辦了一場盛大的派對，邀請了一堆朋友。我們熬夜到很晚，喝得爛醉。隔天，我宿醉得很嚴重，卻必須搬離這間公寓。而她已經走了。當我爸媽來的時候，我還在吐，他們就說：「好吧，看來我們得把這些都處理掉。」當他們開始動手時，我才發現：「喔，原來還有這麼多事要做。」那間公寓我們住了兩年，結果我宿醉，然後我爸媽還得幫忙清理。這讓我覺得很沮喪。我覺得自己沒有被重視，對吧？我們沒有一起做這件事，也沒有事先規劃。但畢竟是畢業，所以算了。然後我們就去阿根廷旅行了。
Together. 一起。
Together. And at the time, I was feeling mad and frustrated that the first time I was like bringing someone to this place that is so personal to me, I was like not excited to do so at the time. We end up going on like honestly a really cool trip that we both remember fondly. And then from my recollection, we didn't really talk after that trip.
我們在一起。當時，我很生氣也很沮喪，因為我第一次帶人來這個對我來說如此私密的地方，我當時卻一點都不興奮。我們最後去了一趟說實話真的很棒的旅行，我們倆都記憶猶新。然後根據我的回憶，那趟旅行之後我們就沒怎麼聯絡了。
You had your New York era. I had my Chicago era. You were dating this guy who...
你有你的紐約時代。我有我的芝加哥時代。你當時和這個男生約會，他…
Sucked. 爛透了。
Well, existed in this completely separate world for me.
嗯，對我來說，她活在一個完全不同的世界裡。
But I just want to go back to something, because they were striking the events and then they were striking the relationship. And they don't seem to necessarily always coincide for both of you. What happened to the feelings? There's just a cue. They may have just numbed themselves because of the distance.
但我只是想回到某件事，因為他們當時正在打擊這些事件，然後他們正在打擊這段關係。而這兩者對你們來說，似乎不一定總是同時發生。那些感覺怎麼了？這只是一個提示。他們可能只是因為距離而麻木了自己。
I mean, I can tell you what happened to the feelings.
我是說，我可以告訴你那些感覺怎麼了。
Yeah. 對。
I had worked myself up so much, and I basically decided that I could either confront her and tell her about all of these feelings, or I could let it go. Those were the only options. I couldn't stay as upset as I was and also not say anything. In my head, I was like, so many of these problems came from us living together and taking each other for granted. It's like, I don't foresee that happening again, so I'm just going to let them go. I really thought that I had let them go until I started feeling similar things when we started living together again. I would say it was good for a little while.
我已經把自己搞得筋疲力盡，基本上我決定，要嘛就是跟她攤牌，把所有這些感受都告訴她，要嘛就是放下。就只有這兩個選擇。我不可能一直這麼生氣，卻什麼都不說。在我腦海裡，我想著，這麼多問題都來自於我們住在一起，並且把彼此視為理所當然。我想，這種情況不會再發生了，所以我決定放下。我真的以為我已經放下了，直到我們再次住在一起時，我開始感受到類似的事情。我會說，有一段時間是好的。
I can't stop noticing the attention to details, layer upon layer, shift upon shift. Every detail matters. It's a very careful tending to the relationship, to the closeness, the distance, the coming toward, the moving away from, the sharing, the keeping to oneself, the expressing the feelings, the trying to distance oneself from one's own feelings because how to be close to you if I feel all of this? So I either stay with my feelings and I separate from you, or I stay close to you and I separate from my feelings.
我無法停止注意到那些細節，層層疊疊，不斷轉變。每個細節都很重要。這是一種非常謹慎地維護關係的方式，包括親密、距離、靠近、遠離、分享、保留、表達感受，以及試圖與自己的感受保持距離，因為如果我感受到這一切，我該如何與你親近？所以，我要嘛堅持我的感受並與你分離，要嘛與你保持親近並與我的感受分離。
I think there was a little bit of contextual distance in that you were fresh off of a breakup, and I was fresh into a new relationship. And so we were both aware that that's different than it had been in the past.
我想當時有一點情境上的距離，因為你剛分手，而我剛開始一段新關係。所以我們都意識到這與過去不同。
Well, and I was like, Emily has obligations and priorities.
嗯，我當時想，艾蜜莉有她的義務和優先事項。
If she has another partner.
如果她有另一個伴侶。
Right, exactly. But at the time, I was like, it's fine. Emily's got another partner. I'm single, I can kind of do whatever. I started like dating everyone with a pulse. And it felt fine. And I think the rub started to come when like, I pulled away from my expectations of you because you had obligations with someone else. But I think sometimes I felt like you still had those expectations of me and that didn't feel fair. Because just because I didn't have my own partner to prioritize, I was like, I'm not going to prioritize you if you are prioritizing someone else. That doesn't feel fair. So I was pouring all my time and energy into it.
對，沒錯。但那時候我心想，沒關係。艾蜜莉有另一個伴侶，我是單身，我可以做任何我想做的事。我開始跟每個有心跳的人約會。感覺還不錯。我想問題開始出現的時候，是我不再對你抱有期望，因為你對別人有義務。但我想有時候我覺得你仍然對我抱有那些期望，這感覺不公平。因為我沒有自己的伴侶可以優先考慮，我就想，如果你優先考慮別人，我也不會優先考慮你。這感覺不公平。所以我把所有的時間和精力都投入其中。
Now we enter into the triangle dynamic.
現在我們進入了三角關係的動態。
Yeah. 對。
So we need to define friendship is one of the things, is what is friendship that isn't we live together, we are partners, we each have our own lives, but we anchor each other in the way that you described so beautifully before. And so now you are four, now you're two partners, right?
所以我們需要定義友誼是其中一件事，友誼是什麼？它不是我們住在一起，我們是伴侶，我們各自有自己的生活，但我們以你之前描述得如此美好的方式，彼此成為對方的支柱。所以現在你們是四個人，現在你們是兩對伴侶，對吧？
And I would say like you don't really know my partner, and I don't like super know your partner. Like I know more because he's been around longer. But yeah, I don't know, maybe it was a fantasy.
我會說，你其實不太了解我的伴侶，我也不算非常了解你的伴侶。我了解多一點是因為他認識比較久了。但，嗯，我不知道，也許那只是一個幻想。
And you never meet alone again.
然後你們再也沒有單獨見面過。
Who? 誰？
Us? 我們？
Yes. Never. It's a form of speech.
對。從來沒有。這是一種說話方式。
Well. 嗯。
But you tend to not meet the two of you.
但你們倆通常不會見面。
I would say. 我會說。
You meet primarily with others.
你主要是跟其他人見面。
I would say that's the case.
我會說就是這樣。
You're part of the same circle, but you don't have that little loop around the two of you anymore.
你們屬於同一個圈子，但你們之間不再有那個小小的連結了。
I would say so. 我會這麼說。
Well, I think it wasn't until we moved to Chicago that you were like, so I've secretly been very angry at you for the last two years. And I said, news to me.
嗯，我想直到我們搬到芝加哥，你才說：「所以，過去兩年我一直偷偷地對你很生氣。」我說：「我怎麼不知道？」
Right. Right. Right. That's fair to say. Yes. I felt mad and I felt like in the time that we had lived together, there had been a time where we were each other's partners. And everything was shared, good or bad. And then suddenly there was this other person that you would share all the good stuff with. And because you hadn't been dating that long, you weren't sharing all the bad stuff. And so you would bring that to me. And I felt taken advantage of because I was like, I don't get her in a good mood. I don't get her excited to go out. I don't get her like wanting to do something. I get her like after work whenever you're in a bad mood and like don't want to see your boyfriend. Like that's what I would get.
對。對。對。這樣說很公平。是的。我感到很生氣，我覺得在我們同住的那段時間裡，曾經有一段時間我們是彼此的夥伴。所有的事情，無論好壞，都一起分享。然後突然間出現了另一個人，你把所有美好的事情都和她分享。而且因為你們交往時間不長，你沒有分享所有不好的事情。所以你會把那些不好的事情帶給我。我感覺自己被利用了，因為我心想，我沒有讓她心情好。我沒有讓她興奮地出去玩。我沒有讓她想做些什麼。我得到的是她下班後心情不好，不想見男朋友的時候。我得到的就是這些。
Meaning the leftovers? 意思是那些剩餘的嗎？
Right. 對。
Right. 對。
I think my memory of the feelings that you brought up were you saying, I've been harboring so much anger and resentment towards you, and now I have to talk about it. And feeling a little like thanks for telling me now. But also, I can't really do anything about those last few years. And it has planted this seed of worry that you are secretly harboring a lot of anger and resentment towards me and not naming it, which has persisted.
我想我對你所提及的那些感受的記憶是，你說：「我一直對你懷有這麼多的憤怒和怨恨，現在我必須說出來。」然後感覺有點像是「謝謝你現在才告訴我」。但同時，我也無法對過去那幾年做些什麼。這也埋下了一顆擔憂的種子，擔心你私底下對我懷有許多憤怒和怨恨卻沒有說出來，這種擔憂一直持續著。
Well, but then I would ask you something, which is that you know that I need, hey, are you okay? You seem weird. What's up? Things aren't, you know, just as an opening, right? Like I struggled to just like, hey, I have something that I wanted to, you know, like and so then I start to get frustrated when I'm like, clearly, you know that I might be harboring resentments. And so why wouldn't you just ask me for that very reason? Well, yeah, but if you ask like, hey, are you mad at me? I would have just been like, yeah, actually this thing made me mad versus then like a year and a half goes by. And I'm like, Emily must know that I'm upset. And the things just keep stacking and she doesn't say anything to me.
嗯，但我會問你一件事，就是你知道我需要，嘿，你還好嗎？你好像怪怪的。怎麼了？事情不對勁，你知道，只是作為一個開場，對吧？我就是很難開口說，嘿，我有些事想說，你知道嗎？所以當我心想，你明明知道我可能心懷怨恨，我就會開始感到沮喪。那你為什麼不就因為這個原因問我呢？嗯，對啊，但如果你問說，嘿，你生我的氣嗎？我可能就會直接說，對啊，這件事確實讓我生氣了，而不是像現在這樣過了一年半。然後我心想，艾蜜莉一定知道我不高興。事情就一直堆積，她卻什麼都沒對我說。
So they talk about resentment. They talk about anger. There's a lot of feelings here mixed in. Jealousy. And there is the, you broke up with me and there is the, I'm upset with you and it's hard for me to tell you, you should notice that and you should be the one to help me say what I have to say by reaching out to me. And now it becomes, if you would help me, if you were different, then I could do what I want to do. And so slowly we identified our stalemate.
所以他們談論怨恨。他們談論憤怒。這裡面混雜了許多情緒。嫉妒。還有，你跟我分手了，還有，我對你不滿，我很難告訴你，你應該注意到這一點，你應該主動聯繫我，幫助我說出我想說的話。現在就變成，如果你能幫助我，如果你不一樣，那我就可以做我想做的事。所以我們慢慢地發現了我們的僵局。
Well, there are two places that we could go. One, I think, is we deal with conflict and emotions very differently, in part due to each of our families.
嗯，我們有兩個方向可以走。我認為其中一個是，我們處理衝突和情緒的方式非常不同，部分原因來自於我們各自的家庭。
Definitely. 絕對。
Where if you were acting some type of way, your dad would bust into your room and yell at you to tell him what's going on.
如果你表現出某種樣子，你爸就會衝進你房間，對你大吼大叫，要你告訴他發生了什麼事。
Yes. 對。
Whereas my family gives space, backup, no intrusion.
我的家人會給予空間、支持，而且不會干涉。
If she needs something, she'll let us know.
如果她需要什麼，她會告訴我們。
Exactly. But we're also still sort of hovering around the 2022 conflict. And part of the prompt of us being here is the distance that's persisted over the last year or so. And I'll add that it's not that I knew you were mad about something and wasn't coming to ask you what's wrong. It's more that I was experiencing when we would hang out. You would mostly talk about yourself.
沒錯。但我們也還在 2022 年的衝突周圍徘徊。而我們之所以會在這裡，部分原因就是過去一年左右持續存在的距離。我還要補充一點，並不是我知道你對某件事生氣，卻沒有來問你怎麼了。而是我發現，當我們出去玩的時候，你大部分時間都在談論你自己。
That's so funny because I felt exactly the same about you. No. Yes.
這太有趣了，因為我對你也有完全相同的感覺。不。是的。
I'm just watching and thinking, you've just entered into an inner circle. We're getting closer. You took your time. You told the story. And now we're in the present. And I just watched you. And I just thought to myself, okay, now it's starting.
我只是看著，然後想著，你已經進入了一個核心圈子。我們越來越近了。你花了一些時間。你講述了故事。而現在我們身處當下。我只是看著你。我只是心想，好了，現在要開始了。
We've arrived. 我們到了。
Sorry it took so long.
抱歉花了這麼久。
No. No. 不，不。
You needed to meet the people. And now we've arrived at the conflict.
你需要去見那些人。現在我們已經來到衝突點了。
And I think you needed it too because an hour is shorter than two years.
我想你那時候也需要它，因為一個小時比兩年短。
You know, when a romantic relationship doesn't serve you anymore, you get rid of it because for most people, you can only have one. But a friendship, like you don't need, first of all, you don't need any. And second of all, you can have as many as you want. And so, you know, I think some friendship sort of skeptics might be like, well, so why are you guys still friends? Or like, why are you trying to be friends? And it's like in telling you the story, like I'm getting emotional, like thinking about like everything we've been through. And like, I've just never had friendship the way I did with Emily. And it makes me so sad that my boyfriend and like probably the love of my life, like doesn't know that and doesn't know you and doesn't know us. Um, as friends, really, he doesn't.
你知道，當一段浪漫關係不再適合你時，你會擺脫它，因為對大多數人來說，你只能擁有一段。但友誼，首先你不需要任何友誼，其次你可以擁有你想要的任何數量。所以，你知道，我想一些對友誼持懷疑態度的人可能會說，那麼你們為什麼還要當朋友？或者說，你們為什麼要努力當朋友？就像在告訴你這個故事時，我情緒激動，想到我們經歷的一切。我從未有過像和艾蜜莉一樣的友誼。這讓我很難過，我的男朋友，可能是我生命中的摯愛，不知道這件事，不認識你，也不認識我們。作為朋友，他真的不認識。
Now that we've arrived, I'm very curious to know what your question was to Esther for the podcast. Like what, what, what did you write in?
既然我們都到了，我很好奇你當時問艾絲特的播客問題是什麼？你寫了什麼？
I wrote that I felt like we had very different experiences and realities about our friendship, that we experienced it very differently and that there was a huge gap and I didn't know how to bridge the gap.
我寫說我覺得我們對友誼的體驗和現實非常不同，我們感受到的差異很大，而且存在巨大的鴻溝，我不知道該如何彌補。
I really appreciate that question prompt. It's true that we have been experiencing different realities of our friendship in the last year and maybe a little more, but we're very clear on our origin story. In part because we've told this story to a lot of people.
我真的很感謝這個問題提示。確實，在過去一年多一點的時間裡，我們對友誼的體驗有所不同，但我們對我們的起源故事非常清楚。部分原因是因為我們已經把這個故事告訴了很多人。
I'd be like, this is my wife. In college, we'd show up somewhere, I'd be like, this is my wife. Here's how we met, we're in love. People would just assume we actually meant we were in love. I think we kind of were at the time, but just not in a sort of typical way.
我會說：「這是我老婆。」在大學時，我們出現在某個地方，我會說：「這是我老婆。我們是這樣認識的，我們相愛了。」人們會以為我們真的相愛了。我想我們當時確實有點相愛，但不是以一種典型的方式。
I think that pointing to our really different experiences of the current reality of our friendship, something that really caught me when you reached out to tell me that you had written into this podcast was you saying, I've been really emotional about this for a long time, and thinking about it, and journaling about it, and talking to my boyfriend and my therapist and our friends about it.
我認為，這指向了我們對目前友誼現狀截然不同的體驗，當你聯繫我說你寫信給這個 Podcast 時，真正讓我印象深刻的是你說：「我對這件事已經情緒化很久了，一直在思考它，寫日記，和我的男朋友、我的治療師以及我們的朋友談論它。」
Mostly my parents, I tried not to talk to her friends about it.
主要是我的父母，我盡量不跟她的朋友談論這件事。
Okay, but you're people. And I think this is sort of getting to the current triangulation, which is you, me, and everyone else. I felt so protective of our primary partnership with each other because I hadn't had a long-term committed relationship before you because you were the most meaningful relationship in my life. And I really resented the idea of anyone finding a partner and then it taking precedent over this really rich partnership that we had built and felt very defensive of the fact that relationships can be multiple and overlapping and you don't have to get everything from one relationship, et cetera. But it feels like you have been talking to everyone else about what you are feeling and how you are perceiving this before talking to me. And to find out that you had been angry and frustrated but really charged and emotional about it and telling our friends, that felt like more of the betrayal.
好吧，但你們是人。我認為這有點像目前的三角關係，就是你、我，以及其他人。我對我們彼此之間的主要夥伴關係感到非常保護，因為在你之前我沒有過長期的承諾關係，因為你是我生命中最有意義的關係。我真的很不喜歡任何人找到伴侶後，這段關係會優先於我們建立的這段非常豐富的夥伴關係，而且我對關係可以是多重且重疊的，你不必從一段關係中獲得所有東西等等事實感到非常防衛。但感覺你一直在和所有其他人談論你的感受以及你如何看待這件事，而不是先和我談。當我發現你一直很生氣和沮喪，而且對此非常激動和情緒化，並告訴我們的朋友時，那感覺更像是背叛。
Yeah, I mean, and obviously, it's like something that I know that I do and I'm trying better. I guess I just felt so... Our partnership felt dissolved, to be honest.
對，我的意思是，很明顯，這是我知道我會做的事情，而且我正在努力改進。我只是覺得……說實話，我們的合作關係感覺已經瓦解了。
See, you emphasize loss and you emphasize betrayal. I didn't matter to you anymore. You had replaced me. Here came the boyfriend. I was no longer your priority. And there's grief and there's loss. You know, somebody once said, every person's autobiography is another person's betrayal. You talk about me, but when you talk about me, that means you talk about things that I may not have chosen to say. And you basically bring everybody else into your orbit, in a way that makes me feel like I'm, how do you say, I'm grist for the mill.
你看，你強調失去，你強調背叛。我對你來說不再重要了。你已經取代了我。男朋友來了。我不再是你的優先順序。那裡有悲傷，有失去。你知道，有人曾經說過，每個人的自傳都是另一個人的背叛。你談論我，但當你談論我時，這意味著你談論我可能沒有選擇說的事情。你基本上把所有其他人帶入你的軌道，這讓我感覺我，怎麼說呢，我是磨坊的磨料。
It makes me feel not so much replaced, but more like left out.
這讓我感覺不像是被取代，而更像是被排除在外。
But you land in the same spot. She feels left out, you feel left out. The trajectory that brings you there is different. But you land up in, I'm not important enough for you to come to me. And she basically has her version of I'm not important enough for you to come to me. On different things. And this is the transition. How do we go from partner to friends when we have new partners?
但你們最終都落到同一個境地。她覺得被冷落，你覺得被冷落。雖然導致你們走到這一步的軌跡不同，但你們最終都陷入「我對你來說不夠重要，所以你不會來找我」的感受。而她基本上也有她自己版本的「我對你來說不夠重要，所以你不會來找我」。只是針對不同的事情。這就是轉變的關鍵。當我們有了新的伴侶時，該如何從伴侶關係轉變為朋友關係？
Well, I think that... 嗯，我認為…
And when you respond, if you allow me, you understand it, but then you were just about to justify it. But I did it because. It's okay, you don't need to justify it. You did it.
當你回應時，如果你允許我說，你理解了，但你剛才正要為它辯解。但我這麼做是因為。沒關係，你不需要辯解。你做了。
I did it, yeah. 我做到了，對。
You both have good reasons for what you do, but it's not the good reasons that are gonna bring you closer. What's gonna help you get closer is to understand the effect that your good reasons have on the other person. And then, how much you care about it. Because, you know, the thing about friendship is it's all free given. It's not something you can impose.
你們雙方都有充分的理由支持自己的行為，但這些充分的理由並不會讓你們更親近。真正能幫助你們拉近距離的，是去理解你們這些充分的理由對對方造成了什麼影響。然後，你們有多在乎這些影響。因為，你知道，友誼的特點就是它完全是自由給予的，你無法強加於人。
Well, to be honest, I think at times I felt imposed upon. And that's kind of the crux of like where my distance became really intentional. I started to feel like you would ask these things of me that were like partner level asks, big asks. And again, like not because friendship needs to be 100% perfectly reciprocal. But like if we haven't talked in a while, we haven't hung out in a while, and you ask me a big favor, and I'm terrible, I don't know how to say no, right? Like I will always say yes. And then I'll feel resentful afterwards for doing it and not feeling like properly valued.
嗯，老實說，我覺得有時候我會覺得被強迫了。這就是我刻意保持距離的關鍵。我開始覺得你會要求我做一些像是伴侶等級的要求，很大的要求。再說一次，不是因為友誼需要百分之百完全對等。但如果我們很久沒說話，很久沒出去玩了，然後你要求我幫個大忙，而我很糟糕，我不知道怎麼拒絕，對吧？我總是會答應。然後事後我會因為做了這件事而感到不滿，覺得自己沒有被適當地重視。
But the thing is interesting that you're highlighting is that the big things I want to do for you, but they take place in the context of all the little things. If we don't hang, check in, send messages, do pulse checks, then when you come with the big thing, makes me feel like I'm being taken advantage of. If we do all the little things and then you come with the big thing, then I feel like I'm really important to you and I matter. It's a very interesting reinterpretation. It's like if we have all the little funds, then when you come with the big question, then I feel almost honored that you rely on me and that I'm your emergency number.
但你強調的這件事很有趣，就是我願意為你做那些大事，但這些事發生在所有小事的背景下。如果我們沒有相處、沒有關心、沒有傳訊息、沒有互相探問近況，那麼當你提出大事時，會讓我覺得自己被利用了。如果我們做了所有的小事，然後你再提出大事，那麼我就會覺得我對你來說真的很重要，我很有價值。這是一個非常有趣的重新詮釋。這就像是如果我們有所有的小額資金，那麼當你提出大問題時，我會覺得很榮幸你依賴我，而且我是你的緊急聯絡人。
When I feel like I have like agency to say yes or no, which I don't often do, I often feel like I'm not good at saying no. Which is my problem, absolutely.
當我覺得自己有權力說「是」或「否」的時候，我通常不會這麼做，我常常覺得自己不擅長拒絕。這絕對是我的問題。
It is your responsibility to say no when...
當你必須說「不」的時候，這是你的責任...
Sure, but like, okay, I have like a very specific example in mind. A year ago, you asked me to drive to Springfield with you.
當然，但就像，好啦，我心裡有個非常具體的例子。一年前，你叫我跟你一起開車去春田市。
Yes. 對。
You called me on the phone. I answered the phone. You said, are you working on Monday? And I was unemployed at the time, so I said, no, I'm not working on Monday. And then you said, would you drive to Springfield with me? Like a three and a half hour drive. And I did not want to. I was like, that sounds like a long trip. You're going to get me get me at 6 a.m. I was like, oh, but we're on the phone. I already told you I'm not working. What am I going to say? I don't want to. That feels rude. So I say yes. And we go and like you bring me breakfast and it was great. And then we get back to the city and you're like, I want to go to therapy in person. Can I drop you off at the bus? And I was like, you picked me up at my house at 6 a.m. for me to do this like giant favor for you. And you like, you're not going to drive me home? And so you like, drop me off at the bus. Bus never came. So I ended up biking the five miles home. And then I got home and I was like furious. And then you didn't text me like, hey, sorry, that was a slog. Like, hope you got home okay. I get a text from you two days later that's like, these two people we went to college with broke up. And I'm like, what am I to you? Does that make sense?
你打電話給我。我接了電話。你問我星期一有沒有上班？我那時候失業，所以我說，沒有，我星期一沒上班。然後你說，你願意跟我一起開車去春田市嗎？大概三個半小時的車程。我當時並不想去。我想說，那聽起來是趟長途旅行。你還要早上六點來接我。我想說，喔，可是我們在電話上。我已經告訴你我沒上班了。我能說什麼？我不想去。那樣感覺很沒禮貌。所以我答應了。然後我們去了，你還帶了早餐給我，很棒。然後我們回到市區，你說，我想去實體看心理醫生。我可以把你放在公車站嗎？我當時想，你早上六點來我家接我，讓我幫你這麼大的忙。你卻不載我回家？所以你就把我放在公車站。公車一直沒來。所以我最後騎了五英里腳踏車回家。然後我到家後氣炸了。然後你也沒有傳訊息給我說，嘿，抱歉，那真是趟苦差事。希望你平安到家。我兩天後收到你的訊息，內容是：我們大學的這兩個人分手了。我心想，我對你來說算什麼？你懂我的意思嗎？
Yeah, it does. 對，確實如此。
Like I didn't even just feel like thanked, like bro, I know that was so annoying. And in my head, I was like, why can't she just do therapy from her house? She lives four blocks from me. And if we have the type of dynamic where I felt like I could just be like, no, drive me home.
我甚至不覺得被感謝，就像，老兄，我知道那很煩人。在我心裡，我想，她為什麼不能在家裡做治療？她住在我家四個街區外。如果我們之間的關係是那種我覺得我可以說：「不，載我回家。」
Yeah. 對。
But I didn't feel that way. You were like, is it cool if I do this? And I'm just like, yeah, I guess. And again, that's on me. Like, I should speak up, but I don't always feel like I can.
但我沒有那種感覺。你當時說：「我這樣做可以嗎？」我只是說：「嗯，我想可以吧。」再說一次，那是我的問題。我應該說出來，但我並不總是覺得我能說出來。
And to your point, if we had had that rapport, it wouldn't have felt like such a pressured yes.
而就你所說的，如果我們之間有那種默契，就不會覺得答應得這麼有壓力。
Right. 對。
And you might have felt like you had more of a leg to stand on to be like, no, bitch, drive me off.
而且你可能覺得你更有理由堅持，像是，不，你這婊子，載我走。
Totally. I think I think in different years, I would have been like, absolutely not. What the fuck were you talking about? Like, drive me home.
完全。我想我想在不同的年份，我會說，絕對不是。你他媽在說什麼？像是，載我回家。
Yeah. 對。
But I just was like, I didn't feel comfortable around you, frankly. And I was feeling used. And I just was like, I kind of need this to end. And like I biked home on Fullerton five miles, like fucking furious and sweating.
但我就是覺得，坦白說，我在你身邊很不自在。而且我覺得自己被利用了。我就是覺得，我需要這一切結束。然後我騎腳踏車回家，沿著富勒頓路騎了五英里，氣得要死，滿身大汗。
Yeah, that sucks. 對，那很糟糕。
I got up at 6 a.m. I was like, I was like, is this a fucking joke?
我早上六點就起床了。我當時想，我當時想，這是在開玩笑嗎？
Yeah. 對。
And this is the first time you're telling her this?
這是你第一次告訴她這件事嗎？
Yes. I think I feel in part mortified and embarrassed for treating you that way. That's not how I want to behave. And that's not how I want you to feel. And I think there's also a little part of me that's like, if you feel something, it's your responsibility to say so. Like, I can't be always guessing and trying to read between the lines and interpret your silence as being mad that I didn't text you a follow-up. Like, I...
對。我想我一部分覺得很羞愧、很尷尬，因為我那樣對你。那不是我想要表現的方式。那也不是我想要你感受到的。而且我想我心裡也有一小部分覺得，如果你有什麼感覺，你有責任說出來。像是，我不可能總是猜測，試圖從字裡行間解讀，把你的沉默解讀成因為我沒有傳訊息給你追蹤而生氣。像是，我…
No. 不。
Wrong? 錯了嗎？
Yeah. No, wrong. No, wrong. But I know you're keen to think about whose responsibility is it, but you know enough that if somebody spends their day driving with you, you don't need a school or a degree to tell you, the nice thing to do is to send a name and message afterwards. We don't even have to send a card anymore. It's in the palm of your hand to just say much appreciated or something that acknowledges. So that's not for her to tell you to do.
對，不對。不對。但我知道你很想知道這是誰的責任，但你很清楚，如果有人花了一整天開車載你，你不需要學校或學位來告訴你，最好的做法是事後發送姓名和訊息。我們甚至不需要再寄卡片了。你只要動動手指就能說聲「非常感謝」或任何表示感謝的話。所以這不是她要你做的。
Yeah. 對。
This is the product of distance. This is more about the emotional distance than about accountability and responsibility, I think. So it's not why as much as how. How have things unfolded that I would be in a situation where the things that naturally come to me don't. Anyone who you pick up at 6 a.m., it's kind of understood you probably will drop them off. Or you'll check afterwards if they got home okay, given that you dropped them at the bus stop. To then go to say, no, no, this is for you to tell. It's less about the telling. It's more, there's a detachment that allows these thoughts not to be thread together.
這是距離的產物。我認為這更多是關於情感上的距離，而不是關於問責和責任。所以，這不是為什麼，而是如何。事情是如何發展到我會處於這樣一種情況，以至於那些自然而然會發生在我身上的事情卻沒有發生。任何你在早上六點載的人，大家都會理解你大概會送他們回家。或者你會在之後確認他們是否平安到家，因為你把他們送到了公車站。然後再去說，不不，這應該由你來說。這與說出來的行為關係不大。這更像是一種超然的態度，讓這些想法無法串聯起來。
Yeah. 對。
When you have friends, when you start to have a situation where you're reluctant to see your friend because you're beginning to think about what's going to come up this time? Or what's the thing we haven't addressed? Or what's the resentment that's been lingering? Or what fuck up will I be exposed with this time? Then you start to not want to see the friend. You look forward to seeing a friend because it's going to be nice, fun, interesting, deep, mischievous, whatever, but not to belabor wrongdoings and criticisms and all of this. So I'm watching this because I think if you do that, you may get it all out, but I'm not sure you will want to spend time together. It's not inviting. So I'm thinking what's the right dosage here of this?
當你交朋友時，當你開始出現一種情況，讓你不太情願見你的朋友，因為你開始思考這次會發生什麼事？或者我們還沒解決什麼問題？或者有什麼怨恨一直揮之不去？或者這次我會被揭露什麼爛事？然後你就會開始不想見這個朋友。你會期待見朋友，因為那會是愉快、有趣、有意思、深刻、調皮的，諸如此類，而不是去糾結錯誤和批評等等。所以我正在觀察這件事，因為我認為如果你這樣做，你或許能把所有事情都說出來，但我不確定你還會想花時間在一起。這不是一種吸引人的方式。所以我正在思考，這裡的正確劑量是什麼？
I think you naming the trip to Springfield is a good example of a grievance that is symptomatic of a larger dynamic. I think a thing that I sometimes feel is wanting you to ask the favor of me and not anyone, like texting in the group chat, hey, does anyone want to watch a movie tonight? My boyfriend's busy. I don't want to just fill in the empty space that you have. I want you to text me and say, hey, I haven't seen you, my boyfriend's out tonight, I would love to watch a movie, do you wanna come over?
我認為你提到春田市的行程是一個很好的例子，說明這種不滿是更大動態的症狀。我認為我偶爾會感覺到的是，希望你向我而不是任何人提出請求，像是，在群組聊天中發訊息說：「嘿，今晚有人想看電影嗎？我男朋友很忙。」我不想只是填補你空閒的時間。我希望你傳訊息給我說：「嘿，我好久沒見到你了，我男朋友今晚不在，我很想看電影，你要不要過來？」
Right, but I haven't wanted to do that.
對，但我一直不想這麼做。
Yes, but I'm saying that my experience of you being self-centered is that, is you not asking me to do anything, not asking me about myself, and then it feels like expecting someone to come in and fill a need for you, and I want you to ask me to be burdened. I want you to ask me to drive to Springfield with you.
是的，但我的意思是，我對你以自我為中心的體驗是，你沒有要求我做任何事，沒有問我關於我自己的事，然後感覺就像是期待有人來滿足你的需求，我希望你要求我承擔負擔。我希望你要求我跟你一起開車去春田市。
Right, but I don't because then I'm like, I'm always gonna ask for something in return, like I'm gonna have to, you know, do another drive to Springfield.
對，但我不會，因為我會覺得我總是要索取回報，像是，你知道，我得再開車去春田市一趟。
But it's a different request. What she wants is for you to make her feel that she's important to you. It's not a burden piece here. This is more like you're seeking her out.
但這是一個不同的要求。她想要的是妳讓她覺得她對妳很重要。這裡不是負擔的問題。這更像是妳在尋找她。
It feels very loaded, right? It feels very loaded. And so it's not chill. And we love to chill. And that's like been so much of our relationship is like relaxing and like unwinding.
感覺很沉重，對吧？感覺很沉重。所以一點都不輕鬆。而我們喜歡輕鬆。而這就是我們關係中很大一部分，就是放鬆和解壓。
Well, I'll add that my experience of us hanging out hasn't felt super loaded. I did not know all of the emotional baggage that was happening for you around the trip to Springfield and how much weight and meaning there was in it. And I understand that that's part of the issue. But it's hard for me to know how sensitive it is.
嗯，我會補充說，我跟妳們出去玩的經驗並沒有感覺到超級沉重。我不知道妳們在史普林菲爾德之旅中發生了多少情感包袱，以及其中有多少份量和意義。我理解這是問題的一部分。但我很難知道它有多敏感。
But then why don't you ask?
但那你為什麼不問？
No, each of you is saying to the other, if you did it differently, things would be easier.
不，你們每個人都在對對方說，如果你們做得不一樣，事情就會更容易。
I know. 我知道。
You know. 你知道的。
But I'm just saying she knows me.
但我只是說她認識我。
Yes, and you know her and you have a 10-year friendship and it could just be the next day after she drops you, you just say, listen, yesterday was a real bitch. And I had that on the bike and this and that. And that wasn't cool. That's it. You have to kind of shorten the distance between action and reaction. That's on your part. But the other piece is when she says, you know, invite me to chill, is of the same vein as you're putting it out in the cosmos. You're checking to see if she's offering herself. If she doesn't offer herself, you think you're no longer on her priority list. But in the same way that you requested, she wasn't put on your priority list. It was more like a, I'm free tonight, who's available. And the specialness becomes questioned by each of you. This is the crochet of the friendship, too. It's like little things like this. And suddenly, there's a kind of a cloud. So when she says, call me, I wouldn't explain why you don't call her. I would say, I'm glad to know you want that because I want that, too. End of conversation. It's like the processing, but then there's a limit to the processing. Because if you become too much of a processing relationship, it doesn't feel chill. And I think your suggestion about calling me to go and do things, you need more of that.
是的，你認識她，你們有十年的友誼，可能就在她載你回家後的隔天，你就可以說：「聽著，昨天真是糟糕透了。我在腳踏車上遇到那些事，這這那那的。那樣一點都不酷。」就這樣。你必須縮短行動和反應之間的距離。那是你這邊的問題。但另一方面，當她說：「你知道，邀請我出去玩。」這和你在宇宙中發出訊息是同一回事。你在確認她是否主動提出。如果她沒有主動提出，你就會覺得你不再是她的優先順位。但同樣地，就像你要求的那樣，她也沒有被列入你的優先順位。這更像是：「我今晚有空，誰有空？」而這種特殊性被你們雙方質疑。這也是友誼的鉤心鬥角。就像這些小事。然後突然間，就蒙上了一層陰影。所以當她說：「打給我。」我不會解釋你為什麼不打給她。我會說：「很高興知道你想要這樣，因為我也想要。」對話就此結束。這就像是處理，但處理也有個限度。因為如果你們的關係太過於處理，就不會感覺輕鬆。而且我認為你關於打給我出去做事情的建議，你需要更多那樣的。
Ask me to borrow my car. Ask to borrow the dog.
叫我借我的車。叫我借狗。
I mean, yeah. 我是說，對啊。
Both of you, though. 你們兩個都是。
No, I know. It's like I... Something I said to her was that I felt like we were sort of mismatched in like the expectations of each other and our actual level of current closeness, right? Like, I don't want to reach out to you to borrow your car because I'm like, that's weird. Like if I'm not hanging out with Emily and then I'm like, let me borrow your car, that feels transactional.
不，我知道。這就像我…我對她說過，我覺得我們對彼此的期望和我們目前實際的親密程度有點不匹配，對吧？就像，我不想找你借車，因為我覺得那很奇怪。如果我沒有和艾蜜莉出去玩，然後我說，讓我借你的車，那感覺就像是交易。
You need those hangouts. 你們需要那些聚會。
Right. 對。
You need those small things that you enjoy doing together. Whatever the things are, it doesn't have to be small. But you need to do the stuff that gives the cushion.
你們需要那些你們喜歡一起做的小事情。不管是什麼事情，不一定要很小。但你們需要做那些能提供緩衝的事情。
Right. The only times I end up seeing you is when we need something from each other.
對。我最後一次見到你，都是因為我們彼此有事需要幫忙。
Have you ever met the four of you?
你們四個有見過面嗎？
Us and our boyfriends? Like maybe once.
我們和男朋友？可能就一次吧。
Okay. So you need twos, you need fours because your group at this point, your group of friends is in a way keeping you together without you being really together.
好的。所以你需要兩個人、四個人，因為你們現在這個階段的朋友圈，在某種程度上是讓你們保持聯繫，但實際上你們並沒有真正聚在一起。
Yeah. 對。
So in a way, it's kind of deflecting. The corrective is more things to two of you, that you have a huge repertoire of things that you can do together, the four of you for that matter. Because if you're going to continue this at some point, if it's not two and if it's not four, it won't sustain.
所以從某種意義上說，這有點像是在轉移注意力。更正的做法是，你們兩個人之間有更多的事情可以做，你們有大量的活動可以一起進行，甚至你們四個人也是如此。因為如果你們要繼續下去，在某個時候，如果不是兩個人，也不是四個人，這段關係就無法維持。
Mm-hmm, yeah. 嗯，對。
And it's OK to have had an incredible friendship in college that didn't sustain. People will tell you stories upon stories of how things just went in different directions and dissolved gradually. But if you want it, then it's about creating these new configurations.
在大學時期有過一段很棒的友誼，即使沒有持續下去也沒關係。很多人會告訴你，事情是如何漸行漸遠，然後慢慢淡掉的。但如果你想要維繫，那就得創造新的連結方式。
Yeah. I think that something I said to you when I talked about coming on this thing is this lazy closeness, where you sort of stop performing for the other person. Obviously, when you're attracted to someone, you meet them out, right? And they're either trying to impress you, or they're on their best behavior, or they're telling you all their best stories. And after a while, they stop doing that because they're comfortable with you. And so, we're not always our best selves with each other. And I suggested, I was like, I want to feel like we are just new friends. Because I don't know what music you listen to. Like, I don't know what shows you're watching. Like, I don't know, like, really small, like, regular things about you.
嗯。我想我跟你說過，當我談到要來參加這個節目時，我提到了這種「懶惰的親密感」，就是你不再為對方表現。顯然，當你被某人吸引時，你會出去見他們，對吧？他們要嘛試圖給你留下好印象，要嘛表現出他們最好的一面，要嘛告訴你他們最棒的故事。過了一段時間，他們就不再這樣做了，因為他們和你在一起感到自在。所以，我們彼此之間不總是表現出最好的一面。我建議，我說，我希望感覺我們就像是新朋友。因為我不知道你聽什麼音樂。我不知道你在看什麼節目。我不知道，就是一些很小、很平常的關於你的事情。
It's like you have the decision to make, will we remain childhood friends? It's the friends you meet, but they're frozen in time. And they didn't really evolve with you. Then you have the ones who travel with you. And they are people who are charting the territory with you. They're creating the new experiences. And then you have the circumstantial ones, the ones who you met because you have kids at the same time or you are in the same school, but it's circumstantial. When that phase ends, so does the relationship. And the ones that you kind of say, they've been in my life 20, 30, 40 years, that's the ones that you create a combination of all of this. Even if you don't have the same circumstances, you manage to remain updated. And it's beyond what series are you watching. It's kind of who are you now.
這就像你必須做出決定，我們會繼續當兒時玩伴嗎？你遇到的朋友，他們的時間被凍結了。他們並沒有真正地與你一起成長。然後有些朋友是與你一同前行的。他們是與你一起開拓新領域的人。他們創造新的體驗。然後有些是因緣際會的朋友，你遇到他們是因為你們同時有小孩，或者你們在同一所學校，但這只是因緣際會。當那個階段結束時，這段關係也隨之結束。而那些你可能會說，他們已經在我生命中 20、30、40 年了，這些朋友是你將所有這些關係結合起來的。即使你們沒有相同的境遇，你們也能保持更新。這超越了你在看什麼影集。這更像是你現在是誰。
Completely. And that's what I said to you. I was like, I don't think you know who I am right now.
完全正確。我就是這樣跟你說的。我當時想，你現在可能不知道我是誰。
Yeah. Well, we're in our boyfriend eras.
對啊。嗯，我們現在都處於男友時期。
I know. 我知道。
Nay, our live with partner eras.
不對，是同居伴侶時期。
I know. 我知道。
And I think I have a lot of grief and resentment that because I'm in a partnership, I'm not single.
我認為我有很多悲傷和怨恨，因為我處於一段伴侶關係中，我不是單身。
Right. 對。
And because you're in a partnership, you're not single. And so we're not each other's primary anchor partners.
而因為你處於一段伴侶關係中，你不是單身。所以我們不是彼此的主要錨定伴侶。
It's time for me to suggest something concrete that they can do together. And I'm thinking about my card game, Where Should We Begin?, the game of stories, and how people have told me that they play the game by picking one card every day and telling a story about that card, and how much it has elicited so many untold stories, so many reinterpretations of the other person, which they thought they knew, but then discover so many new things about. But also especially how it's energizing, it's playful, it doesn't process the problems, it generates new selves in the relationship. So every day, you flip a cart, you send it, and you tell a story, and find a way to bring each other back into your lives today. But not only by talking about the things that you're upset about, but by actually creating an energy that makes you want to connect to each other. You won't stay friends by talking about what makes you upset. It doesn't work this way. It's important to do, but it's not what keeps the friendship alive.
現在是我提出一些具體建議的時候了，他們可以一起做些什麼。我正在考慮我的紙牌遊戲《我們該從何開始？》（Where Should We Begin?），這是一個關於故事的遊戲，以及人們告訴我他們每天抽一張牌，然後講一個關於那張牌的故事，這引發了多少未曾講過的故事，多少對另一個人的重新詮釋，他們以為自己了解對方，但後來卻發現了許多新的事物。但尤其重要的是，它如何充滿活力，充滿玩樂，它不處理問題，它在關係中產生新的自我。所以每天，你翻一張牌，你發送它，你講一個故事，並找到一種方法讓彼此重新回到你們今天的生活中。但不僅僅是談論那些讓你心煩的事情，而是透過實際創造一種能量，讓你們想要彼此連結。你們不會透過談論讓你們心煩的事情來維持友誼。這不是這樣運作的。這樣做很重要，但這不是維持友誼活力的原因。
I also like that as we rebuild and refresh our relationship, that we can invite our partners into this new family system, that there's this new important person in your life who I get to meet and become friends with as well.
我也喜歡，當我們重建並重新整理我們的關係時，我們可以邀請我們的伴侶進入這個新的家庭系統，你生命中有了這個新的重要人物，而我也可以認識他並和他成為朋友。
Yeah. Yeah, I would love for you to know him. It's crazy, we live four blocks from each other.
對。對，我很希望你能認識他。很瘋狂，我們住的地方只隔了四個街區。
And what if you took a walk together? You know, a few times a week, half an hour, and you walked a dog.
那如果你們一起散步呢？你知道，一週幾次，半小時，然後你們遛狗。
We love dogs. 我們喜歡狗。
I mean, it's that kind of ritual, fun, simple.
我的意思是，這就是那種儀式感，有趣，簡單。
And we found that in group dynamics, but we've lost that on a one-to-one basis.
我們在團體動力中找到了這種感覺，但在人際互動中卻失去了它。
Right, yes. But you're right. I mean, we do have, like, tons of things. I was just like, we should go antiquing. Like, we love antiquing, and we live in the Midwest.
對，沒錯。但你說得對。我的意思是，我們確實有很多事情可以做。我只是覺得，我們應該去逛古董店。我們很喜歡逛古董店，而且我們住在中西部。
I started knitting. 我開始學織毛線。
She didn't even tell me.
她甚至沒告訴我。
I've been knitting, but I'm stuck because I fucked it up and I don't know how to fix it. And I'll help you.
我一直在織毛線，但我卡住了，因為我搞砸了，我不知道怎麼修復。我會幫你。
Yeah. 對。
And you haven't seen my new beading. I haven't beaded.
你還沒看過我新串的珠子。我還沒串珠子。
Literally. 字面上的意思。
All right. That's the energy you're going to live with. We're not going to add anything. Because you'll have a lot of things to discover. What else don't you know about me that has happened in those last few years?
好的。這就是你將要面對的能量。我們不會再添加任何東西。因為你將會有很多事情要發現。在過去這幾年裡，你還有什麼關於我的事情是不知道的？
I love you, buddy. 我愛你，老兄。
Where Should We Begin with Esther Perel is produced by Magnificent Noise. We're part of the Vox Media Podcast Network in partnership with New York Magazine and The Cut. Our production staff includes Eric Newsom, Destri Sibley, Sabrina Farhi, Kristen Muller, and Julian Att. Original music and additional production by Paul Schneider. And the executive producers of Where Should We Begin are Esther Perel and Jesse Baker. We'd also like to thank Courtney Hamilton, Mary Alice Miller, and Jack Saul.
《艾斯特．沛瑞爾的我們從何說起》由 Magnificent Noise 製作。我們是 Vox Media Podcast Network 的成員，與《紐約雜誌》和 The Cut 合作。我們的製作團隊包括 Eric Newsom、Destri Sibley、Sabrina Farhi、Kristen Muller 和 Julian Att。原創音樂和額外製作由 Paul Schneider 負責。《艾斯特．沛瑞爾的我們從何說起》的執行製作人是艾斯特．沛瑞爾和 Jesse Baker。我們也要感謝 Courtney Hamilton、Mary Alice Miller 和 Jack Saul。
