WE ARE DATRE 5
我们是 DATRE 5
CONVERSATIONS WITH DATRE
与 DATRE 的对话

目录

WE ARE DATRE 5 CONVERSATIONS WITH DATRE 1
我们是 DATRE 5 与 DATRE 的对话 1

目录 2

INTRODUCTION 4
引言 4

ENERGIES 8
能量值 8

WHERE DO ANIMALS COME FROM? 28
动物从何而来？ 28

THOUGHTS AND THINKS 40
思维与思考 40

CONSCIOUSNESS UNITS 44
意识单元 44

PHYSICALITY 52
实体性 52

HUMANITY 55
人性指数 55

POSSIBILITIES AND PROBABILITIES 77
可能性与概率 77

TIME 85
时间 85

QUESTIONS AND REPLYS 102
问题与解答 102

VIOLENCE 107
暴力指数 107

OBESITY 117
肥胖症 117

PROBABILITIES 137
概率论 137

OUTSIDE THE BOX 145
跳出思维定式 145

RESTLESSNESS 155
焦躁不安 155

SPEAKERS 164
演讲者 164

SELF AND EGO 170
自我与本我 170

REALITIES 192
现实 192

UNIVERSES 196
宇宙 196

GRAVITY 205
重力 205

CONCEPTS 211
概念 211

IN CLOSING 222
结语 222

INTRODUCTION
引言

DATRE: (SEPT. 2006) This book has transcripts of many discussions with John and Datre over a number of years. The reason we are doing this book is because so may people have asked, are we ever going to do any questions and answers like we have done before and have put in the Datre archives.
DATRE：（2006 年 9 月）本书收录了多年来与约翰和 DATRE 进行的众多对话记录。我们编纂此书的原因是，许多人都曾询问是否会像以往那样进行问答环节，并将内容存入 DATRE 档案库。

No, we are not going to do any more in the archives, if people read all of that, that’s fine but, it becomes too cumbersome to try and do books and do the things with the transcripts, because we’ve got stacks of them.
不，我们不会再往档案库添加新内容。如果人们已阅读过全部存档资料，那很好。但若同时尝试整理书籍和处理这些文字记录，工作量会过于繁重——毕竟我们已积压了大量资料。

But, what we’re doing is, we’ll pick some of those that we thought will probable be of most interest to you and now are putting them in a book.
不过，我们正在做的是从中挑选一些我们认为您可能最感兴趣的内容，现在将它们汇编成书。

Now, when we do transcripts with John, some of them have been questions that people have asked, and we’ve answered them. But we’re still including them because they’re of interest to other people as well as the person that asked the question originally.
当我们与约翰整理对话记录时，有些内容是回答他人提问的。虽然这些问题已有答案，但我们仍将其收录其中，因为这些问题不仅对提问者有价值，也可能引起其他人的兴趣。

The other ones, sometimes have personal things in them, sometimes they don’t. But, here’s a whole mish-mash of different things, different concepts, different ideas by different ones of Datre.
另一些记录中，有时包含个人化的内容，有时则没有。但这里汇集了各种不同的内容、概念和观点，都来自 Datre 的不同成员。

Because Datre comes in and they’ll do a transcript relating to what John and Aona are thinking about and talking and one has one idea and one has another idea, so they say, “well, lets get another opinion”. And that’s where we come in.
因为当 Datre 成员加入对话时，他们会根据约翰和 Aona 正在思考和讨论的话题进行记录。有时一方持某种观点，另一方持另一种观点，这时他们就会说："让我们听听其他意见吧"。而这正是我们介入的时机。

Now, we being, as told before, many different “me’s”. So, what we do is, you can read one on consciousness and it will say one thing. Then you’ll read another one on consciousness and it will say something else. Then you read another one and it will say something else.
正如之前所说，我们由许多不同的"自我"组成。因此你会发现，当你阅读一本关于意识的书籍时，它会阐述某种观点；接着阅读另一本同类书籍时，又会看到不同的说法；再读一本，观点又有所不同。

But, it’s the different transcripts that make a book. And that’s why a book is very complicated because its taking different transcripts, different ideas, sorting through them and then saying, “okay, Datre, this is what we’ve got, lets take all of this and put it together and simplify it.”.
但正是这些不同的论述共同构成了一本书。这也正是书籍的复杂之处——它需要整合各种不同的论述和观点，经过筛选后说："好了，Datre，这就是我们收集到的材料，让我们把这些内容整合起来并加以简化。"

And that’s how a book is made.
一本书就是这样诞生的。

So you can see. Its not as easy as it looks. People that write novels and things like that, its one thing. But when… And people that have books dictated to them. That’s another thing, because its all set-up and in a sequence.
由此可见，这并非表面看起来那么简单。写小说之类的人是一种情况，而...那些通过口述记录成书的人又是另一种情况，因为后者是按既定顺序编排好的。

But, Datre material doesn’t have a sequence. We’re not sequence people. We’re not even… sometimes we, the same me doesn’t come in for, probably long periods of time. But then they’ll hit something that we’ll say, “that’s for me, I’ll do that one”.
但是，道瑞资料没有先后顺序。我们不是按顺序行事的人。我们甚至...有时候同一个"我"可能很长时间都不会出现。但当他们遇到某些内容时，我们会说："这个适合我，我来处理这部分"。

So this is the way it works. That’s why people say, “well why don’t you get an editor?” or “Why don’t you do this that or the next thing?”. And the only thing is we have to get people we know because we don’t want them fooling with the wording. Because, this is us talking.
这就是我们的运作方式。所以人们常说："你们为什么不找个编辑？"或"为什么不做这个那个？"。关键在于我们必须找熟悉的人，因为我们不希望他们改动措辞。因为，这就是我们在说话。

Now, the only thing that editors do for us is sequence. But they don’t change things. You give any of this stuff to an editor and the first thing you know, it comes back and its not Datre.
现在，编辑唯一能帮我们做的就是排序。但他们不会修改内容。如果你把这些材料交给任何编辑，转眼间拿回来的就不再是道瑞了。

So we have to do everything from beginning to end.
所以我们必须从头到尾亲力亲为。

You think a cover is easy to come up with? Nope! It takes a long time to find something that’s different, that’s interesting. Something that fits, what we want to do. Because its “our” book. Its not Aona’s book. Its not John’s book. Its our book and we put it together the way we want to.
你以为设计封面很容易吗？才不是！要找到既与众不同又趣味盎然，同时契合我们理念的设计需要耗费大量时间。因为这是"我们"的书，不是奥娜一个人的书，也不是约翰一个人的书——这是属于我们共同的作品，我们按照自己的意愿精心打造。

Now, you’re going to get a little insight as to not only the difference in the different Datre transcripts on the same subject. But you’re going to get a little insight on John and Aona and how they work also.
现在你将不仅了解到不同 Datre 资料中关于同一主题的差异，更能窥见约翰与奥娜的工作方式及他们之间的互动。

Because there’s different things and personal things. But we’re not going to go through every transcript and take out every little thing that refers to John and Aona, it takes too much.
因为其中包含各种私人化的内容。但我们不会逐字逐句筛选涉及约翰和奥娜的每个细节，那样工作量太大了。

So what we’re doing is, we’re putting the whole mish-mash in – here it is. We can say, some more archives, except this time it comes in a book form.
所以我们决定原汁原味呈现这个"大杂烩"——这就是它的本来面貌。可以说这是另类档案集，只不过这次是以书籍的形式呈现。

Okay, thank you.
好的，谢谢。

We’re Datre.
我们是 Datre。

NOTE:
注：

We have added dates to all of the transcripts and placed them in the book in their order of origin – except for the “ENERGY” transcript due to some material contained in it that we wanted up front.
我们已为所有文字记录添加日期，并按原始顺序编入书中——除了"能量"篇的文字记录，因其包含某些我们希望优先呈现的内容。

This sequence should also give you some insights as the progression of John and Aona’s understanding over the years.
这段历程也能让你洞悉约翰与奥娜多年来认知的演进轨迹。

John Sinkiewicz
约翰·辛凯维奇

ENERGIES
能量

DATRE: (AUG. 2006) Now, one of the things we’ve been discussing, we were talking about… you have recently read something where they were talking about flow and you started to laugh and you said, “where have we heard that one before?”..
DATRE：（2006 年 8 月）现在我们要讨论的重点之一是...你们最近读到某些关于"流动"的论述时突然发笑，还说"这话我们以前在哪儿听过？"...

The only one that we have heard previously even mention flow was Datre.
我们之前唯一听过的提到"流动"这个词的是 Datre。

And that is true, You see, that is the way we see things. That is why it is so difficult for us to describe things. We talk about you as squiggly figures and why we can’t give you individual answers.
确实如此，你看，这就是我们看待事物的方式。这也是为什么我们很难描述事物。我们把你们描述为扭曲线条，这就是为什么我们无法给你们个体化的答案。

Its… we were talking… lets say that what we, shall we say, perceive or see when we look through Aona’s eyes, in an out of body experience, if you want to call it that, we pacify the body so that we can see through Aona’s eyes while she’s out there, shall we say, looking down at the earth, if you want to put it that way.
这个...我们当时在讨论...这么说吧，当我们通过 Aona 的眼睛观察时——如果你想称之为出体体验的话——我们会安抚她的身体，这样就能在她出体俯瞰地球时（如果你想这么形容的话）通过她的眼睛来感知或观察。

She’s seeing all of this movement, this flow, as smoke. And there’s all different kinds of smoke. There’s brown smoke, there’s gray smoke, there’s black smoke, there’s white smoke. There’s a combination of all of these, there’s darker and lighter of all the different variations. And its in constant movement.
她看到的这些运动、这种流动，都如同烟雾。而且有各种各样的烟雾——棕色的、灰色的、黑色的、白色的。这些颜色相互混合，形成深浅不一的各种变化。而且始终处于不断运动之中。

And the thing is, in order to answer some of the questions that are asked, it is necessary to, shall we say, through our perception is to hone in like on, like a brown smoke, and we try and get the densest part of that brown smoke to start following that flow. And getting it to the point that we think you can understand what we’re talking about.
关键在于，为了回答某些问题，我们需要——不妨这么说——通过我们的感知去聚焦，就像追踪一团棕色烟雾那样，我们要设法捕捉那团烟雾最浓密的部分，然后跟随它的流动轨迹。直到我们觉得你们能够理解我们所传达的内容。

Now, in the mean time, that smoke is like… what can I say that I can see… You have some pictures that have waves in it and it keeps repeating these waves, you see the waves coming and going.
与此同时，那团烟雾就像...该怎么说呢...就像你们见过的那些带有波浪的图片，波浪不断重复起伏，你能看见它们周而复始地涌动。

JOHN: Yeah.
约翰：是的。

DATRE: Well, its like that because a wave is a very unique thing that happens. In that it forms and it can follow a path. It will go down, then it will come
DATRE：正是如此，因为波浪是一种非常独特的现象。它形成后能沿着路径行进，会先下落，然后再升起

back up, then it will be a great big spray of water all over. Then it comes in and all the spray is gone and that will not end the water. Because the water flows back into itself again.
一旦后退，就会激起巨大的水花四处飞溅。当它重新涌入时，所有水花都消失了，但这并不意味着水的终结。因为水流会再次回旋归位。

And that’s like following smoke when we’re trying to explain something. Then we have to take a concept and put into words.
这就像我们试图解释某事时追逐烟雾的情形。随后我们不得不将某个概念转化为语言表述。

JOHN: One of the difficulties with this kind of communication, that we’re trying to convey, is that we, the bodies that we think are our Selves, are actually little universes in and of themselves within that construct. But we don’t recognize that a cell is its own universe, for example.
约翰：这类我们试图传达的沟通方式存在一个难点——我们这些自以为是的身体躯壳，实际上只是那个构造体系中自成一体的微型宇宙。但举例来说，我们并未意识到一个细胞本身就是独立的宇宙。

DATRE: A cell is not… it is complete in-and-of itself, but I don’t like the word universes. It throws everybody into thinking grand and glorious. That’s the first concept that anyone has of a universe.
道瑞：细胞并非...它本身是完整自足的，但我不喜欢"宇宙"这个说法。这个词会让每个人都联想到宏大壮丽的图景。而"宇宙"给人们的第一印象总是如此。

We’ll go out into the universe. We’ll explore in the universe. Mars is in the universe.
我们将前往宇宙深处。我们将在宇宙中探索。火星就在宇宙之中。

You see, everything that man thinks of, the minute you say universe, its got to be out there.
你看，人类所能想到的一切，只要提到宇宙，那必然存在于某处。

JOHN: But that point won’t apply now, because its obviously in here
约翰：但现在这个观点不适用了，因为它显然就在这里

DATRE: Well that’s it, but, if you say a cell is complete in-and-of itself. That takes care of it. It has its own innate knowingness.
DATRE：正是如此，但如果你说一个细胞本身就是完整的，那就解决了。它拥有与生俱来的觉知。

That’s how it is able to form that which you call an atom.
这就是它能够形成你们称之为原子的方式。

JOHN: A cell doesn’t form an atom. A cell is made up of gillions of atoms. It doesn’t form an atom. We’ve got something backwards there.
约翰：细胞不会形成原子。细胞是由无数原子构成的。它不会形成原子。我们这里有些概念搞反了。

DATRE: Well, that’s what I’m trying to say John, is that… yes, but even an atom… an Anu, they all have the totality in them. Otherwise nothing would work.
DATRE：嗯，约翰，这正是我想说的，就是...是的，但即便是原子...一个阿努，它们内部都包含着整体性。否则一切都不会运作。

JOHN: There is no halfway anything.
约翰：不存在任何半途而废的事物。

DATRE: No! Everything is complete in-and-of itself. But what I’m saying is, that’s why I don’t like universe because it sets it into a grand and glorious thing. It is grand and glorious, but the first thing you humans do is, universe has got to be someplace out there, so how do I get out there?
DATRE：不！一切事物本身都是完整的。但我想说的是，这就是为什么我不喜欢"宇宙"这个概念——它把存在描绘成某种宏大辉煌的东西。虽然确实宏大辉煌，但你们人类的第一反应总是：宇宙肯定在某个遥远的地方，那么我该怎么去那里？

I don’t like this place any more so I want to get out there and where is out there? Oh, I want to get out to where ever, Venus or Mars or Pleiades or whoopdi-do’s or what ever.
我不再喜欢这里了，所以想去"那边"——可"那边"是哪儿呢？哦，我想去随便什么地方，金星火星昴宿星团还是什么乱七八糟的。

Nobody seems to realize that the word in-and-of itself… unconsciousness, the word in-and-of itself throws everything into chaos.
似乎没人意识到这个词本身的含义..."无意识"这个词本身就足以让一切陷入混乱。

JOHN: It does, because we tie… the word consciousness is trying to describe a particular “kind” of energy.
JOHN：确实如此，因为我们把..."意识"这个词试图描述的是一种特定"类型"的能量。

DATRE: That’s right.
DATRE：没错。

JOHN: And we have basically two words in our language that can roughly can fit that, and that’s “awareness” and “consciousness”. Neither one does the job very well.
JOHN：在我们的语言中，基本上有两个词可以大致对应这个概念，那就是"觉知"和"意识"。但这两个词都不能很好地表达这个意思。

DATRE: No it doesn’t. But you get a different feeling by the words. At least we do with this body construct.
DATRE：确实如此。不过这两个词会给人不同的感受。至少我们通过这个身体构造能体会到这种差异。

When you say consciousness, its confined. You say awareness and that opens it up. You get a different feeling entirely. Now if your body is sensitive to that you feel it. If its not, then you don’t feel it. But the word itself, “consciousness” closes down – “awareness” is open. AH HA.
当你说"意识"时，它是封闭的。而说"觉知"时，这个概念就打开了。你会得到完全不同的感受。如果你的身体对此敏感，你就能感觉到。如果不敏感，就感觉不到。但这个词本身，"意识"是封闭的——"觉知"是开放的。啊哈。

Anything that begins with an “A” that is of a nature, it opens up, you don’t close your mouth to say “A” – “A” is open. So “awareness” is an opening up.
任何以"A"开头的事物都具有开放的本质，当你发"A"音时嘴巴是张开的——"A"就是开放的。因此"觉知（awareness）"意味着一种敞开的状态。

JOHN: I have a little bit different spin on that. Okay, to me “awareness” is a generalized thing.
约翰：我对这个说法有点不同见解。在我看来，"觉知"是个很笼统的概念。

DATRE: Yes.
DATRE：是的。

JOHN: But, “consciousness” is a focused thing.
约翰：但"意识（consciousness）"则是聚焦的状态。

DATRE: Alright.
DATRE：好的。

JOHN: Are you conscious of this? Are you aware of that? You see, it’s a very different… conscious implies or indicates to me, its not only a focus, but
JOHN：你意识到这个了吗？你觉察到那个了吗？你看，这是非常不同的..."意识"这个词在我看来不仅意味着专注，

its something you can relate to specifically.
还特指某种你能具体关联的事物。

Like the consciousness of an apple. You can say the awareness of an apple, but the awareness of an apple, to me, would include the tree.
比如一个苹果的意识。你可以说一个苹果的觉知，但对我而言，苹果的觉知会包含那棵树。

DATRE: I was just going to say the very same thing. Because it does.
DATRE：我正想说同样的话。因为确实如此。

JOHN: But conscious of the apple does not include the tree. It only includes the relationship of the apple to the tree.
JOHN：但对苹果的觉知并不包含树。它只包含苹果与树的关系。

DATRE: You see, there again, confinement.
DATRE：你看，这又是一种局限。

JOHN: But that’s what you’re trying to do. Under certain conditions you’re trying to be specific. You can’t experience the consciousness of a bird by talking about the house or a tree that the bird is in.
JOHN：但这正是你们试图做的。在某些条件下，你们试图具体化。你们无法通过谈论鸟所在的房子或树来体验鸟的意识。

DATRE: Now, you see that’s different. An apple is attached to the tree. A bird is not attached to anything. Its not within another containment other than itself and it knows itself as itself and it knows the outside of itself, as the outside of itself.
DATRE：你看，这就是区别所在。苹果是依附于树木的。而鸟儿则不依附于任何事物。除了自身之外，它不被任何容器所束缚——它知道自己是自己，也知道自身之外即为外界。

But you see, there again, you get into the word connotations and the minute you said apple, the first thing that came to us was the tree with the apple on it and the stem connecting. So you see, the minute you say apple, that and the word awareness, then you’re attaching to whole tree. That was the first concept received.
但你看，这又涉及到词语的隐含意义了。当你提到"苹果"这个词时，我们首先联想到的就是挂在树上的苹果，以及连接它们的果柄。所以你看，当你说出"苹果"这个词时，连同"觉知"这个概念，你就已经关联到了整棵苹果树。这是我们接收到的第一层概念。

So that is the way we perceive it. And that is what’s difficult John. And this is why it is so good to explain those things. Simply because we need two different ways of looking at everything.
这就是我们的认知方式。而这正是困难所在，约翰。因此解释这些概念非常重要——因为我们需要用两种不同的视角来看待所有事物。

JOHN: Yeah, that’s minimum.
约翰：对，那是最低限度。

DATRE: That’s minimum is right. But you see, consciousness has been good for people in the psychology and all that sort of thing, because they can break… and medicine, science can break it down into as many different names as they can think of to put on consciousness.
DATRE：你说得对，那是最低限度的理解。但你看，意识这个概念对心理学等领域的人们很有帮助，因为他们可以将其分解...在医学和科学领域，研究者们能用各种能想到的不同术语来剖析意识这个概念。

So you have consciousness, unconsciousness and sub-consciousness and super-consciousness and all of these different things. So for us to try and explain that, we just give different perceptions of the same thing without using the word.
于是就有了意识、无意识、潜意识、超意识等等五花八门的分类。我们试图解释时，只是对同一事物给出不同角度的理解，但避免使用这些术语。

That’s the way we “try” and do it. Now, there are times it becomes very difficult to take something that “you” call subconscious and explain it without using the word.
这就是我们"尝试"的方式。不过有时候，要解释你们所谓的"潜意识"而不使用这个词，确实非常困难。

But that has to come in the flow of the material that we’re talking about.
但这必须顺应我们讨论内容的内在逻辑自然呈现。

So this is very good for people to understand that its not as simple as it sounds.
这对人们理解事情并不像听起来那么简单很有帮助。

JOHN: No, unfortunately, the language by its very nature is an awkward construct.
约翰：不，遗憾的是，语言本质上就是一种笨拙的构造。

DATRE: Its confining.
DATRE：它很局限。

JOHN: We invented it because we forgot how to do concepts.
约翰：我们发明语言是因为我们忘记了如何进行概念交流。

DATRE: That’s right, that’s right. It took many eons to get to the point that you even had such a thing, that you call consciousness.
DATRE：没错，确实如此。你们花了无数岁月才达到如今这个阶段，才拥有你们称之为"意识"的东西。

That’s where the difficulty comes in and that’s why some of this material looks very rudimentary, because we’re trying to go beyond that point and describe it differently so that its understood and still keep it in baby terms.
这正是难点所在，也是为什么部分资料看起来非常基础——因为我们正试图超越那个阶段，用不同的方式描述它，既要确保能被理解，又要保持初学者的表述方式。

But this business of consciousness and awareness and all of that and the difficulty in following, that which you call, the trail of smoke.
但关于意识、觉知这些概念，以及追踪你们所说的"思维轨迹"时遇到的困难，

That’s very unique and different. Very interesting to us. Because can you imagine the amount of learning we receive? From trying to disseminate and trying to figure out your realities and all of that and how we’re going to describe all of these things.
这一切都极为独特而不同。对我们来说非常有趣。你能想象我们从中获得了多少新知吗？通过尝试解析和理解你们的现实世界，以及我们该如何描述所有这些现象。

JOHN: And in what framework.
约翰：在什么框架下。

DATRE: Yes. Then the thing is, everybody says, well I don’t know why I can’t. Well…
达崔：是的。问题是，每个人都说，我不知道为什么我做不到。嗯...

JOHN: “You” are the reason why you can’t.
约翰："你"就是你不能做到的原因。

DATRE: That’s right. But the thing is they don’t understand, that if you don’t understand something and get to the point of “knowingness”, through experience, you have to have it through experience, that’s why this “nursery school” is so uniquely different. But its becoming harder because there is so much stagnation.
达崔：没错。但问题是他们不明白，如果你不理解某件事并达到"认知"的程度，通过经验，你必须通过经验来获得它，这就是为什么这个"幼儿园"如此独特地不同。但它变得越来越困难，因为有太多的停滞。

Its moving in some areas and stagnating in others. So you have the dichotomy but its becoming overwhelming in many areas as far as the physical construct.
某些领域正在发展，而另一些领域则停滞不前。因此这种二元对立确实存在，但从物质构造的角度来看，这种停滞在许多领域已变得难以承受。

JOHN: So far as the areas of stagnation is concerned that’s overwhelming the overall process. DATRE: That’s right, because… well people are… JOHN: Really lazy.
约翰：就停滞领域而言，它正在拖累整个进程。DATRE：没错，因为...好吧，人们实在是...约翰：太懒惰了。

DATRE: Yes, but not only that, they’re so busy with the everyday world of…
DATRE：是的，但不仅如此，他们还整天忙于...

JOHN: Things and stuff.
约翰：各种琐事。

DATRE: Yes, yes. You have to have stuff. You have to have things. But…
DATRE：是的，是的。你们必须拥有物质。你们必须拥有东西。但是...

JOHN: The strong, strong programming that has been fed to all the humans from what ever organizations we call religions or science or politics or what ever has been said to humanity has worked to stagnate more and more and more.
JOHN：那些被灌输给全人类的强烈编程——无论我们称之为宗教、科学、政治还是其他任何对人类的说教——已经使得停滞现象变得越来越严重。

When it was looser and it wasn’t so structured and so focused, then humans were much better off than they are today. Today, they are so focused, so pushed, compressed into stagnation that to them, a good deal is just a little bit less stagnated.
当这种束缚较为宽松、结构不那么严密、焦点不那么集中时，人类的日子比现在好过得多。如今他们被如此聚焦、如此压迫、压缩至停滞状态，以至于对他们而言，稍有好转就意味着停滞程度略有减轻。

DATRE: (chuckle) That’s right. But you see, because of how quickly… you were watching, not too long ago, the invention of the airplane.
DATRE：（轻笑）没错。但你看，由于发展速度之快...不久前你们还在见证飞机的发明。

Now, you stop and think of that. That all took place in the 1900’s.
现在，停下来想想这些。这一切都发生在 20 世纪。

JOHN: The early 1900’s
约翰：20 世纪初

DATRE: Well it started out in the early 1900, what five or something? What ever the number was. Then before you got to 2000, that year that you call 2000, you had already gotten into jet airplanes.
DATRE：嗯，那始于 20 世纪初，大概是 1905 年左右？具体年份记不清了。在你们所谓的 2000 年到来之前，就已经发明了喷气式飞机。

JOHN: Oh, not only jets, but rockets and everything else.
约翰：噢，不仅是喷气机，还有火箭和各种其他发明。

DATRE: That’s right. But you see how fast that went?
DATRE：没错。但你看到那有多快了吗？

JOHN: Yeah.
约翰：没错。

DATRE: In that which you call a time frame.
DATRE：就在你们所谓的时间框架内。

JOHN: In a blink of an eye.
约翰：转瞬之间。

DATRE: Oh, its less than that. Because it took you eons to… well I should say, many, many centuries or many, many whatever’s, to get to the point where you were beyond the point of the stick figure. That was a slow process. And that took a lot of development.
DATRE：哦，其实远不止如此。因为你们花费了永恒的时间...应该说，历经无数个世纪或难以计数的岁月，才逐渐超越了简笔画小人般的原始形态。那是个极其缓慢的进化过程，需要大量的发展演变。

But, once you started getting the hang of this physicality and how it…
但当你们开始掌握这种物质形态的窍门，理解如何...

JOHN: The whole idea of bodies.
约翰：关于身体的全部概念。

DATRE: A body and how you could work with it. You see, at that time you still…
DATRE：躯体以及如何与之协作。要知道，那时你们仍然...

JOHN: What good was it. It was an interesting experience but what value did it have beyond that?
约翰：这有什么意义呢？虽然是一次有趣的经历，但除此之外它还有什么价值？

DATRE: That’s right. And that’s what they were looking for, was value fulfillment. And now you start out, in physicality, you start out as a little baby, with all the “knowns”.
达崔：没错。而这正是他们所追求的——价值实现。现在你以物质形态开始，作为一个婴儿降生，带着所有的"已知"。

Now those, everything that starts out, that you’re taught as a child is a “known” is a previous experience that has been had by more than one physical expression. Then because everybody agrees that that is what happened, that becomes a “known”.
那些从童年时期就被教导的"已知"，其实都是被多个物质个体体验过的过往经验。当所有人都认同某件事确实如此时，它就成为了"已知"。

So you start out with all of these. We know this. We know that. We know something else, we know something else. And its very hard to turn the boat around in the bathtub, because you have so many “knowns” that people immediately, if you say something that’s against what they “know” as a known…
所以你最初就带着所有这些认知。我们知道这个，我们知道那个，我们还知道其他种种。就像在浴缸里调转船头一样困难，因为人们拥有太多"已知"——只要你说出与他们认知相悖的话...

JOHN: And has been programmed as a known.
约翰：并且被编程为已知事物。

DATRE: Programmed as a known, they turn around and walk away.
达崔：一旦被编程为已知事物，人们就会转身离开。

JOHN: Yup! That’s why we have, that “known” thing as a very good example. That’s the way our education system… we never teach people “how” to think.
约翰：没错！这就是为什么我们把"已知"这个概念当作绝佳例证。我们的教育体系就是如此...我们从不教导人们"如何"思考。

We just deal with what to use and the “what to do’s” and the “knowns”, “knowns”, “knowns”. That’s all we deal with. We don’t teach “how” to develop and understand within your Self. That’s crucial.
我们只关注使用什么工具、"该做什么"以及各种"已知"、"已知"、"已知"。这就是我们教育的全部内容。我们从不教授"如何"在自我内在发展和理解。这才是关键所在。

DATRE: But, it is crucial, because that’s the only way you can get out into that which you call your space or whatever you want to call it.
DATRE: 但这至关重要，因为这是你们唯一能进入所谓"空间"或其他任何称呼的途径。

JOHN: Out of this physicality. That doesn’t have any “knowns”.
JOHN: 脱离这个物质躯体。那里不存在任何"已知"的事物。

DATRE: Yeah. Because… But you still are getting people, and I can think of several right at the present time that have experienced out-of-body travel.
DATRE: 没错。因为...但你们仍会遇到这样的人——此刻我就能想到好几个经历过出体旅行的人。

They take their silver cord and they go out and they take their whole belief system with them.
他们带着银线离开躯体，却把整套信仰体系也随身带走了。

JOHN: Well, of course.
约翰：嗯，那是当然的。

DATRE: I’m finding that so much in the information that you and Aona are reading.
达崔：我在你和奥娜阅读的资料中发现大量这类内容。

JOHN: They obviously take their belief system with them.
约翰：他们显然带着自己的信仰体系。

DATRE: Of course.
达崔：确实如此。

JOHN: That’s one good way to overcome the belief system because you’re faced with a reality that your belief system has not accommodated you for.
约翰：这是突破信念体系的好方法，因为你面对的现实是你的信念体系尚未为你适应的。

DATRE: That’s right.
DATRE：没错。

JOHN: So you change your belief system and…
约翰：于是你改变自己的信念体系，然后……

DATRE: But if you don’t it doesn’t help.
DATRE：但如果你不改变，就无济于事。

JOHN: Well, you’re pushed, because things begin to happen “to” you that seem to be out of your control, because of your belief system.
约翰：你看，你会感到压力重重，因为根据你的信念体系，那些看似超出你掌控的事情开始"降临"到你身上。

DATRE: Uh ha, but nothing happens “to” you.
道瑞：嗯哼，但没有任何事情是"降临"于你的。

JOHN: Some of the points that some of the material has made, is that, what we call death is only the last stage of being dead.
约翰：有些资料提出的观点认为，我们所谓的死亡只是"死亡状态"的最终阶段。

Humans, many, many humans are dead long before they lay that body down. Because dead, the real definition of dead is “stagnation”.
人类，许许多多的人类在放下这副躯体之前，早已死去多时。因为死亡，其真正的定义就是"停滞"。

DATRE: And that is the difficulty in that which you call the dead zone.
DATRE：这就是你们所谓的死亡地带的困难所在。

JOHN: Yes.
约翰：是的。

DATRE: Its stagnation.
DATRE：它的停滞状态。

JOHN: They were stagnated before they ever laid the body down. So look at the habit patterns and the beliefs that are involved.
JOHN：他们在放下身体之前就已经停滞不前了。所以看看其中涉及的习惯模式和信念吧。

DATRE: But you see, the stagnation is prior to that which you call death.
DATRE：但你看，停滞发生在你们所谓的死亡之前。

JOHN: Yes. Oh yes, that’s the only real death there is when you stop the flow and stagnate. That is the only thing that can be called death. And that happens when you’re still walking around.
JOHN：是的。哦没错，当你停止流动陷入停滞时，这才是唯一真正的死亡。这是唯一能被称作死亡的状态。而这种状态发生时，你甚至还在四处走动。

DATRE: It happens very early. In fact, that would be a shocker to a lot of people to find out… even those in what you would call higher stations of learning. Of being looked at as proficient in their field. Many of those are already dead.
DATRE：这种情况很早就发生了。事实上，很多人会发现这相当震惊...即便是那些你们所谓学术地位很高的人，那些被视为领域专家的人。他们当中许多人其实已经死了。

JOHN: Oh, yes.
约翰：噢，没错。

DATRE: Because, all they have done is taken one line of thinking and done it and done it and done it. Occasionally somebody will come up with a new idea. They’ll take it and run with it and they…
DATRE：因为他们所做的只是抓住一种思维方式，反复重复再重复。偶尔有人会提出一个新想法，他们就会抓住这个想法并不断推进，然后...

JOHN: Usually it not new ideas, its just a new way of looking at things you already know. Or you think you know.
JOHN：通常这些并非真正的新想法，只是用新视角看待已知事物——或者你以为已知的事物。

DATRE: Things you already “know” and changing it. Well, what happens is, because of the… man does not want to, after they have day after day been lauding someone for doing something fantastic, then find out it isn’t right, they don’t want to say anything about it. Because its that little contingent that wants to hang on to that.
DATRE：对你们"已知"的事物进行改造。问题是这样的：当人们日复一日地赞美某人做出了惊人成就后，即使发现那并不正确，也不愿承认。因为总有一小撮人顽固地坚持着错误观点。

And that doesn’t work. Because, they say everything should be open to scrutiny and yet you put all the boundaries around it so there’s no way you can open it to scrutiny.
这根本行不通。他们嘴上说一切都要经得起检验，却又设置重重障碍，使得真正的检验根本无从开展。

JOHN: Nope. Even those hard-nose individuals that are so structured and stagnated in their own disciplines and they are considered piers of their particular discipline. When those people become exposed to other things of “non-reality” and they just simply deny it.
约翰：没错。即便是那些在自己领域里思维僵化、固步自封的顽固分子——他们可是各自学科的顶梁柱——当这些人接触到"非现实"的事物时，他们只会断然否认。

Even though they personally have had the experience. They will simply deny it happened, that was just an illusion that I had.
哪怕他们亲身经历过。他们也会矢口否认发生过这种事，声称"那只是我的幻觉"。

DATRE: That’s right.
DATRE：没错。

JOHN: It was a fit I was going through, or what ever.
约翰：他们会说"那只是我当时情绪失控"或诸如此类的借口。

DATRE: That’s right, that’s right. Its like the other evening when you were watching on television another version of crop circles.
DATRE：没错，正是如此。就像前几天晚上你在电视上看到的另一个版本的麦田怪圈节目。

All these different programs of crop circles. They’re showing up again, because now you have the grains they can work with in the lab and everything.
所有这些关于麦田怪圈的不同节目又出现了，因为现在实验室里有了可供研究的谷物样本等各种条件。

But what is very interesting (chuckle) there is no way that man, in and of himself, his human physicality, could go out and precisely do some of these very difficult patternings.
但非常有趣的是（轻笑），人类单凭自身肉体的力量，根本不可能精准地制作出其中某些极其复杂的图案。

And they still think it has to be an extra-terrestrial in a spaceship that does it. Or it has to be a human. And its neither.
可他们依然认为这必定是外星人乘着飞船所为，或者必定是人类所为。然而两者都不是。

JOHN: Yeah, that’s the only two options they’ve got. They don’t understand that that’s “not” the only options.
约翰：是啊，他们以为只有这两种选择。他们不明白那"并非"仅有的选项。

DATRE: But, they will not understand anything else because it doesn’t fit into physicality and it upsets them to know that there’s something else.
DATRE：但他们无法理解其他可能性，因为那些超出了物质层面的认知，知道存在其他维度会让他们感到不安。

Well, therefore someone’s coming on our planet, there again, the basic premise of humans that is carried through, for how long I don’t know – and that’s fear.
正因如此，当有人来到我们的星球时，人类根深蒂固的本能反应就会显现——这种延续了不知多久的基本预设，就是恐惧。

JOHN: Sure.
约翰：当然。

DATRE: They’re so afraid of accepting anything else, because they don’t understand it.
DATRE：他们非常害怕接受任何其他事物，因为他们无法理解。

JOHN: That’s right. That’s what they come in with is a big bundle of fear and noise is their other problem.
JOHN：没错。他们带着一大堆恐惧而来，噪音则是另一个困扰他们的问题。

DATRE: Yes. Then of course, we don’t get into noise with Aona.
DATRE：是的。当然，我们不会和 Aona 讨论噪音问题。

But anyway, that fear jumps up and grabs them and it has to be something that they can touch, feel, smell, taste, whatever.
但无论如何，那种恐惧会突然袭来并攫住他们，而且必须是他们能够触摸、感受、闻到、品尝到的东西才行。

JOHN: And can rationalize.
约翰：并且能够合理化。

DATRE: And can rationalize. That’s why our Deva book was so important.
达崔：并且能够合理化。这就是为什么我们的《提婆之书》如此重要。

Now, how that Deva book is going to come across to people we don’t know.
现在，我们不知道这本《提婆之书》会如何被人们接受。

JOHN: We haven’t had any feed-back on it actually.
约翰：实际上我们还没有收到任何反馈。

DATRE: No, and yet you sold a lot of books. Not a lot as far as the whole planet is concerned. But, its going to start people wondering. There are going to be some that are going to read this book that are clairvoyant.
DATRE：不，但你们已经卖出了不少书。当然从整个星球的角度来看不算多。不过，这会开始让人们产生思考。有些读到这本书的人具备通灵能力。

And those that are clairvoyant are going to say, well, finally we get some information about this. But you see, there’s going to be a gillion people that – well I don’t know anything about it, therefore.
而那些通灵者会说：太好了，我们终于获得了相关资讯。但要知道，还会有无数人表示——我对这些一无所知，所以不感兴趣。

And its like anything else, its like telling people about some thing of a physical nature, then they’ll say… take this business of the painting as an example or cross-stitch or molding clay or working with glass.
这就像其他任何事物一样，当你向人们介绍某种实体层面的东西时，他们就会说……以绘画为例，或是十字绣、陶艺、玻璃工艺。

Well, do you want to try it? Oh, I don’t know anything about it, I’m not interested.
那么，你想尝试吗？哦，我对此一窍不通，没兴趣。

Even in physical things, don’t you want to try it if given the opportunity?
即便在物质层面，有机会的话你难道不想尝试一下吗？

Goodness, I can’t…
天啊，我做不到...

JOHN: I’m liable to make a change. And two things I don’t want is, things not to change or things to change. That’s the biggest thing.. fear it’s the fear of change or the fear of lack of change.
约翰：我很可能会做出改变。而我最不想要的两件事就是：事物一成不变或事物发生变化。这才是最关键的...恐惧源于对改变的恐惧或对缺乏改变的恐惧。

DATRE: That’s right, so they’re caught in the middle.
DATRE：没错，所以他们被困在中间进退两难。

JOHN: It’s a catch 22.
约翰：这是个进退两难的困境。

DATRE: That’s stagnation. They’re afraid to go… its like the one I think we gave, way, way, many years ago. They get out into… you start giving them… I want to learn, I want to know, and they keep… its like someone walking across a small stream, they’re walking on the stones and they get to the middle and they’re afraid to go forward and they’re afraid to go backward and there they stand and holler for help.
达崔：这就是停滞不前。他们害怕前进...就像很多很多年前我们举过的那个例子。他们陷入...当你开始给予他们...“我想学习，我想了解”，而他们却不断...就像有人要穿过一条小溪，踩着石头走到中间时，既不敢前进又不敢后退，只能站在原地大声呼救。

JOHN: Stagnate on location.
约翰：在原地停滞不前。

DATRE: That’s right. Its like the mountain climbers, the man that was incapacitated with his legs and he had to use canes to walk. Then in walking up the mountain he found that he could only go so far and the decision was made to turn around and go back.
达崔：没错。就像那些登山者，有个双腿残疾必须拄拐行走的人。在登山过程中，他发现只能走到某个程度，于是决定转身下山。

But, he had to. There was no other way, he had to make a decision. And his decision was for the benefit of all.
但，他别无选择。没有其他办法了，他必须做出决定。而这个决定是为了所有人的利益。

Otherwise they would have to carry me and you can’t impose that restriction on other people and decided he had to go back. And it pained him.
否则他们就得抬着我走，你不能把这种限制强加给别人，于是他决定必须回去。这让他痛苦万分。

But the thing was, he had to make a decision.
但关键在于，他不得不做出抉择。

If everyone on this planet – and it may come to that – it may, there’s a possibility, probability this is one of them.
如果这个星球上的每个人都——而且很可能会——确实有可能，这就是其中之一。

You’re going to be faced with a proposition – decision time. You go forward, or you stay where you are. And the minute you stay where you are you’re going backward.
你将面临一个抉择——做决定的时刻。要么前进，要么停滞不前。而当你选择驻足的那一刻，就意味着你在倒退。

JOHN: Yup, there is no standing still. You’re either going forward or you’re going backwards.
约翰：没错，世上没有静止状态。你不是在前进，就是在倒退。

DATRE: Because everything is moving about you. Even “now” is moving. How come some days are so long and some are so short? And how come you can’t remember from one day to another?
DATRE：因为万物都在你周围运动。连"当下"也在流动。为何有些日子如此漫长，有些却转瞬即逝？又为何你对昨日的记忆会模糊不清？

You get in a flow, and that flow is idea time, its absorption time, its ah ha time. That is “no” time.
当你进入心流状态，那便是灵感迸发的时刻，是吸收消化的时刻，是顿悟的时刻。那即是"无时间"的永恒之境。

That is what Aona was seeing when she saw these different what she was calling, I think she called them realities or something. Where you have the live zone and the dead zone and you have this other area that is a “no time” zone.
这就是奥娜所看到的景象，当她目睹这些不同的存在时——我想她称之为现实或类似的概念。那里存在着生命区域、死亡区域，还有另一个被称为"无时区"的领域。

Well, that’s what that is. Ideas are no time. Inspiration, no time. Concepts, no time. And the more you use… well some people call it psychological time.
没错，这就是它的本质。思想没有时间性。灵感，超越时间。概念，不受时间束缚。你越是运用...好吧，有些人称之为心理时间。

JOHN: Psy time. Psychological time.
约翰：心理时间。心理层面的时间。

DATRE: Psychological time. See that has no time element on it. Because there’s no physical action involved. So that has what you call “no-time”, that’s now. Now, doesn’t take up any time.
DATRE：心理时间。你看，这完全不含时间元素。因为它不涉及任何物理行为。所以这就是所谓的"无时态"，即当下。当下，不占据任何时间维度。

So anyway, we wanted to get into this because when we came up with trying to explain to you just in conversation, we came up with this idea of smoke. Which I think really takes care of it because you know how smoke intermingles with each other… JOHN: Yeah.
总之，我们想探讨这个话题是因为在尝试用对话向你们解释时，我们想到了"烟雾"这个比喻。我觉得这个比喻特别贴切，因为你们知道烟雾是如何相互交融的...约翰：没错。

DATRE: And how it gets lost and then its found again. So, we see energy more like what you call smoke, streams of smoke. Think patterns and thought patterns are two different colors of smoke.
DATRE：以及烟雾如何消散又重现。所以我们把能量看作你们所说的烟雾，缕缕烟丝。思维模式和思考模式就像是两种不同颜色的烟雾。

So anyway, I think we have covered a lot of areas so you’ve got an idea of the way we present things and the way Aona’s sees and feels about things and the way you do. Which is only, shall we say, three, including which ever Datre happens to want to come through Aona.
总之，我想我们已经涵盖了很多方面，你们应该能理解我们呈现事物的方式、奥娜感知事物的方式，以及你们自己的方式。可以说，这总共是三种视角——包括任何通过奥娜传达信息的 Datre 存在体。

But its three different ways of looking at the same thing. If there were two alike it wouldn’t work, because…
但这是看待同一事物的三种不同方式。如果有两种视角雷同就失去意义了，因为...

JOHN: That would then be stagnation.
约翰：那就会陷入停滞。

DATRE: There again, you’d have your individual stagnation. And that doesn’t work either.
达崔：再说一遍，你们会陷入个人的停滞。那样也行不通。

So, anyway, me of Datre, which ever me I happen to be at the time, will see you later.
总之，达崔中的我——无论此刻的我恰好是谁——稍后再见。

We thank you, and goodbye.
我们感谢你们，再见。

WHERE DO ANIMALS COME FROM?
动物从何而来？

JOHN: (MARCH 2003) The question has been asked many times; Where do animals come from?
约翰：（2003 年 3 月）这个问题被反复提出：动物究竟从何而来？

DATRE: Well, animals come from the same place you do.
DATRE：其实动物和你们来自同一个源头。

You see, when a Creator Core Self created you’s to experience, they can’t all experience human bodies. There has to be more. A Creator creates. A Core Self is not satisfied with just one thing created. There are creators all over the place. And there continues to be creators all over the place making different types of containments for experience of all kinds.
要知道，当造物核心自我创造你们来体验时，他们不可能只体验人类躯体。必须要有更多元的存在。造物者即创造者。核心自我不会满足于仅创造单一事物。造物者无处不在，他们持续创造着各式各样的容器，用以承载千差万别的体验。

There were ever so many creating plants, animals, fish and birds. Now, you just don’t create something and say; Well, here it is, that’s the end of that. You continually create and refine, change color, change size, all these different things.
曾经有无数被创造的植物、动物、鱼类和鸟类。要知道，创造并非一蹴而就——造好了往那一摆就说"喏，完成了"。创造是个持续精进的过程，要不断调整颜色、改变尺寸，尝试各种变化。

So, you have all of these creators not only creating human bodies, but creating all these others. That’s the experience. The experience is the richness of different things. That is why many of your humans on your planet have become so satisfied with having things the same way and doing the same things in the same way and those who don’t want change and being pushed into change and not liking the change.
因此所有这些创造者不仅塑造人类躯体，还创造着万物众生。这就是体验的真谛——体验在于感受万物的丰盛多样性。正因如此，你们地球上许多人才会如此安于现状：用固定模式重复相同的事。而那些抗拒改变的人，被变革浪潮推着走时就会感到不适。

But that isn’t what creation is all about. Creation is a continuing process.
但这绝非创造的本来面目。创造是永不停息的进程。

So you have, shall we say, “original” creations that when the creators where working with a specific thing – we’ll take animals – but this works both ways, down to the rocks and up to the other end, which is the fish and so forth.
可以说存在着"原始"创造版本——当创造者们专注于某个特定领域时（比如以动物为例，不过这个原理适用于从岩石到鱼类等所有存在），就会产生这样的初始形态。

We’ll take an animal, we’ll take a cat. The cat as it originally came out was a very huge, huge animal. Then when they got that that way, they said; Well, lets see if we can make something different.
我们会拿一只动物举例，就拿猫来说吧。最初诞生的猫是个体型非常庞大的动物。当它们以那种形态存在时，造物者说：不如我们试试创造些不同的变体。

Okay, lets say the first cat turned out to be white. Then, well lets make another one and we’ll make it black. Well, lets make another one and we’ll make it black and white. Then what happened is, the white one at that point began to experience itself and began to create its own self. The same thing with the black one and the same thing with the black and white one.
假设第一只猫是纯白色的。接着他们又创造了纯黑色的变体，然后又创造了黑白相间的花色。这时奇妙的事情发生了——那只白猫开始产生自我意识，逐渐形成独立个性。黑猫和花猫也经历了同样的觉醒过程。

We’ve explained how you came to be you, it’s the same process exactly. Then because they’re working in consciousness, so that holds it together so they can continue with “their creative evolution”.
这其实和人类意识觉醒的过程完全一致。因为它们都在意识场中运作，这种联结使它们能够持续进行"创造性进化"。

So you get from the great big cat to littler and littler and littler and littler until you’ve got the one that’s running around on the floor and getting in the way of rocking chairs and everything else. The little house cat.
于是巨型猫的体型越来越小，越来越小，最终演变成如今在地板上窜来窜去、总在摇椅边碍事的小家伙——这就是现在的家猫。

Now, because cats do not have what you have as a dead zone, they have their own way of their own developmental structure, shall we say.
由于猫科动物不具备人类所谓的"死亡地带"，它们拥有独特的生命发展结构体系。

What they do is, say the mother cat has litter of four or five little babies, and these little babies grow up and go their own way. Then what happens, the mother is the one that usually dies first. But she keeps her own identity and forms around itself its own consciousness.
具体表现为：假设母猫产下四到五只幼崽，这些幼崽长大后各自独立生活。通常母猫会最先离世，但它会保留自身特性，并在其周围形成独立的意识场。

Then when the next in that litter dies it goes to where the mothers consciousness is, being automatically drawn to it. Just as you in the dead zone are drawn to your parents, if that is your desire.
当同窝的第二只猫离世时，其意识会自然被母猫的意识场所吸引而前往聚合。这就像人类在死亡地带会依自身意愿被父母吸引一样。

The next little baby has grown up and dies and also goes to that gestalt. Then they all have their own individual personalities to add to, what you call, a consciousness gestalt.
随后每只长大的幼猫离世后都会加入这个意识聚合体。它们各自保留个性特征，共同构成你们所称的"意识完形"。

Now those little animals are together and maybe even some of the offspring of those other little babies. Then some of them become cohesive in their experiences and some of them do not. Some of them do not go to that particular gestalt.
如今这些小动物们聚在一起，甚至可能还混着当初那些幼崽的后代。它们中有些在经历中形成了凝聚力，有些则没有。有些未能融入那个特定的完形体。

But when a gestalt is formed and it reaches, what you call, another “potential”, all of those experiences are gathered in that gestalt to make a cohesive gestalt of “one”. At that point, that one becomes the mother that takes another physical existence again with the expanded awareness and experiences of the total gestalt. Then from that point births other babies.
但当完形体形成并达到你们所称的另一种"潜能"时，所有经历都会被汇聚其中，形成一个具有凝聚力的"合一"完形体。此时，这个完形体便成为母体，携带着整个完形体的扩展意识与经验再度具象化。随后从这个母体中又会孕育出新的幼崽。

But, those that are in that gestalt can once again experience this new mother with the expanded awareness and experience from that point. That cycle is a continuing cycle. Because, like you, going from live zone to dead zone to live zone, back and forth and back and forth.
而那些存在于该完形体中的个体，又能以扩展后的意识重新体验这个新母体。这种循环周而复始。就像你们人类在生者领域与亡者领域间来回穿梭那样。

The animals do the same thing. But they stay in, that which you call, your cohesiveness. Than instead of a dead zone they have viable gestalts that they coagulate and make into a new expression which begins other expressions.
动物们也遵循同样的模式。但它们始终保持着你们所称的凝聚力。不同于人类的亡者领域，它们拥有可存续的完形体，这些完形体不断凝聚并形成新的表现形式，继而开启更多新的表现形式。

So, their creative process is via a gestalt. What you would call a “family” gestalt. This is typical for all animal groups. This happens to be a cat. Individual dog families have the same thing.
因此，它们的创造过程是通过完形实现的。你可以称之为"家族"完形。这是所有动物群体的典型特征。这里以猫为例，单独的犬科家族也遵循同样的模式。

That is how the animals, shall we say, evolve in their experiential patterning and continue to develop. That is why, sometimes you’ll say; That animal almost appears to be human. That is from the evolution of the gestalt – the original cat or dog gestalt family – who have an accumulated exposure to humans.
这就是动物们——不妨这么说——在其经验模式中进化并持续发展的方式。正因如此，有时你会感叹：那只动物几乎像人类一样。这种特质源自完形的进化过程——最初的猫或狗完形家族——它们积累了与人类接触的经验。

Some animals prefer exposure to humans. And other animals, out of the same litter, would prefer exposure to others of its kind. Like a street cat for example. The street cat, when it dies, will join a gestalt that is compatible with their experiential patterning and not go back to the mother gestalt.
有些动物更倾向接触人类。而同胎出生的其他动物，则可能更偏好与同类相处。以流浪猫为例。当流浪猫死亡时，它会加入与其经验模式相契合的完形，而非回归母体完形。

So that’s how the gestalts keep changing and that is what they work from in their evolutionary patterning.
这就是完形持续演变的方式，也是它们在进化模式中运作的基础。

Now take one particular cat that is born of this mother cat. And we’ll say its name is poky. Alright, poky is of this particular mother gestalt. That new mother is born of the new gestalt.
现在以这只母猫产下的某只特定小猫为例。我们给它取名波奇。没错，波奇源自这个特定的母性完形。而这位新母亲又诞生于新的完形体。

It reappears in physicality, it creates itself in the new physicality and with the total awareness and expanded awareness experience of that gestalt then births other litters of kittens. That which is poky can go back and create itself from the mother with all the expanded awareness of the mother.
它以物质形态重现，在新的物质形态中创造自身，凭借该完形体完整的觉知与扩展的觉知体验，继而孕育其他猫崽。作为波奇的存有，可以回溯并借助母体所有扩展的觉知重新创造自己。

This is how the cats work with their evolutionary patterning. Poky still maintains its identity, just like you maintain your identity. But you can go into the dead zone and gain from that experience when you come into the next live zone and put yourself into the next live zone. You can come in with expanded awareness.
这就是猫科动物运作其进化模式的方式。波奇始终保持着自身特性，就像你保持自我身份一样。但当你进入死亡地带获取经验后，就能在进入下一个生命地带时，带着扩展的觉知重新降临。

So you see, creation is always there. You’ll say; Well we have an endangered species and there is only so many of them left. They’ve just been discovered, but we only have a few of them left. Have you ever stopped to think that that is a “new” creation?
你看，创造始终存在。你们常说：某种濒危物种只剩寥寥数只了。它们刚被发现时，数量就已所剩无几。可曾想过那其实是"全新"的创造？

Lets take the spotted owl. Everybody got all excited when they saw a spotted owl the first time. They tried to find out how many there were and they found out there were very few. That is new. That is the beginning. You don’t realize that there are always those “new” creations.
以斑点猫头鹰为例。人们初次见到这种鸟时都兴奋不已，试图统计它们的数量，结果发现所剩无几。这就是新生事物的开端。你尚未意识到，世间永远存在这类"崭新"的创造物。

Then, how come no more dinosaurs? Well because, that was something that – Well we’ve experienced that so lets change them this way and lets change them that way, then those became, what you call, extinct.
那么恐龙为何绝迹？因为那些生物——我们已体验过它们的存在，于是决定进行各种改造，最终它们就变成了你们所称的"灭绝物种"。

How did they become extinct? Well, they’re nothing but vibratory energy patterns to begin with, so why can’t they become extinct – in “your” reality? You know, extinct, just like everything else.
它们如何灭绝的？说到底不过是振动能量模式的产物，在"你们"的现实里为何不能消失？要知道，灭绝本就是万物常态。

Then you’ll say; Well, poor dinosaurs. No! They took up a lot of space, so if you don’t take those, which are humongous things, they did their thing and now you’ve got smaller things. Animals are smaller and the people are bigger.
或许你会感叹：可怜的恐龙啊。不！它们曾占据巨大空间，当这些庞然大物完成使命后，更小巧的生物便取而代之。如今动物体型缩小，而人类体型增大。

Then, because you have such a limited scope on what you are able to “know” at the present time, you don’t know about all the things that became extinct, way back when. You don’t know thousands of years back. You don’t know eons. You don’t know eons and eons and eons.
由于你当前所能"知晓"的范围极其有限，你无从了解远古时期就已灭绝的万千物种。你对数千年前的往事一无所知。你对亿万年光阴毫无概念。你对无穷无尽的亘古岁月全然陌生。

You know, this didn’t all happen only a thousand years ago or even ten thousand years ago. No! This was long, long, long before that. So you Creators continue to create.
要知道，这一切并非仅发生于千年前，甚至不是万年前。不！那是在远比这更为久远的时代。因此你们这些创造者仍在持续创造着。

Now, as we’ve said before, the humans have this richness of their experience that they have continually drawn on. But they have a different construct. The animals have a very limited belief system. A very limited emotional system. And they work from those points.
正如我们先前所言，人类拥有不断汲取的丰富经验宝库。但他们具备不同的认知架构。动物们则有着非常局限的信念体系，极其简单的情感机制，并基于这些基础运作。

They learn how, from the very beginning, how to, shall we say, recreate themselves and all of this. That is part of their make up. The thing is, they have a different understanding than you have.
它们从生命初始就懂得，该如何——姑且这么说——重塑自身与万物。这是它们生命构造的一部分。关键在于，它们的理解方式与你们截然不同。

They’re not concerned with life and death as you are. But, because, you as humans have the life and death cycle, which was put into motion by Mass Consciousness. That meant that everything else had to follow suite.
它们不像你们那样关注生死。但由于你们人类拥有被集体意识启动的生死循环，这意味着其他一切也必须随之效仿。

You have certain parameters that you have set into motion, over long periods of time. You have good and bad. You have light and dark. You have life and you have death. You don’t even consider those as being options. At one time they were options. Every single one of them were options.
你们在漫长岁月中设定了某些运行参数。你们区分善恶，划分明暗，界定生死。你们甚至不认为这些曾是可选的存在。但曾经它们确实都是可选项，每一个都是。

Then you were only working with very rudimentary life forms. So what would need night and day and good and bad and life and death for? There was no need. All you were doing was trying to manipulate this little containment called “you”, so that was that. There was no time. And yet there was all time.
那时你们只与最原始的生命形式打交道。昼夜更替、善恶对立、生死轮回的意义何在？毫无必要。你们所做的不过是尝试操纵这个名为"你"的小容器，仅此而已。那时没有时间概念，却又包含所有时间。

Then, if you’ll look back, you’ll find in your books where you started calendars and where you started clocks. Which were not previously in existence.
若回溯历史，你们会在典籍中发现历法和时钟的起源——这些在先前根本不存在的事物。

Now, if you have that in books that you can read in the present day, you can see how recent that was compared to eons of time.
如今，若你能在当代书籍中读到这些内容，便能明白这与亘古岁月相比是何等近在咫尺。

So, we’re trying to give you an explanation of how this physicality all came about. And how the knowingness of these animals, fish, birds, plants, rocks, all of this came about. Their particular knowingness is something that they’ve had. It is not something newly discovered.
因此，我们正试图为你解释这一切物质形态如何形成。这些动物、鱼类、鸟类、植物、岩石的觉知，这一切如何产生。它们特有的觉知是与生俱来的，并非新近发现之物。

So you see, the difference is, the evolution of the species of man in comparison to the evolution of the species of the others that inhabit your planetary existence
由此可见，区别在于人类物种的进化，与居住在你行星上的其他物种进化之对比

You experience here in the live zone, you get into that, which you call, the dead zone and you experience there. So that’s all it is.
你在此处生命带体验，进入所谓死亡带后继续体验。仅此而已。

Now, the same with animals. When they die, that doesn’t say they quite experiencing. They form a pseudo body, and I’m telling you why, because why after that little cat called Portland died, did Aona trip over it here in your living room? Then she looked down and there was Portland looking up at her.
动物也是如此。当它们死亡时，并不意味着体验就此终结。它们会形成伪躯体，我来解释原因——为何那只叫波特兰的小猫死后，奥娜会在你家客厅被它绊倒？当她低头看时，波特兰正仰头望着她。

Same thing. You see, just because they die, they have the innate knowingness that they’re dead. In fact, that’s the thing with animals, when they know they’re going to die, they just leave the body. They don’t care to be involved in that suffering.
道理相同。你看，动物死亡时天生就明白自己已逝。实际上这正是它们的特点：当预感到死亡来临时，它们会直接脱离躯体，不愿承受临终的痛苦。

But the human hangs onto the body like the woman that Pat goes to see, that next Wednesday is going to be 97, she’s blind and she lays there in bed and cries.
但人类却执着于躯体，就像帕特去探望的那位老太太——下周三就满 97 岁了，她双目失明躺在床上哭泣。

You see, the animals have a more innate knowingness because they’ve only gotten to a certain point and they are very satisfied to stay where they are. They will learn from that vantage point, but they like the ability to be able to, shall we say, sleep. They sleep and they go out of body. They don’t stay in those animal bodies. But the minute you want them, boy they’re right there.
要知道，动物具备更天然的觉知力，因为它们只进化到特定阶段，且安于现状。它们会从现有视角学习，但更享受我们称之为"睡眠"的能力。它们通过睡眠脱离躯体，不会困在动物形骸中。可只要你需要它们，小家伙们立刻就能现身。

They’re not sleeping, the body is sleeping. Why stay around in the body when there is nothing interesting? See what I’m referring to?
他们并非在睡觉，只是躯体在沉睡。既然躯体里毫无趣味，何必滞留其中？明白我的意思吗？

So, what I’m saying is, the animals are completely content the way they are. They have that innate knowingness within them. They have these different things to function with. They have a Mind, just like you have. But it’s not a Mind that creates beyond their creativity. Animals create. You have that which you call the little otters that take their teeth and they cut down trees and they build dams.
所以我想说的是，动物们对自身存在状态完全满足。它们内在拥有那种与生俱来的觉知力，具备各种维持生存的机能。它们也有心智，和你们一样。但这种心智不会超越它们的创造力边界。动物确实会创造，比如你们称为水獭的小家伙会用牙齿啃倒树木筑造水坝。

JOHN: Those are beavers.
约翰：那是河狸。

DATRE: Beavers, alright, that’s what beavers do. Now, that is creativity. They’re creating. They create dams and homes for themselves. You see, animals have different ways of creating.
DATRE：河狸，没错，这就是河狸的天性。你看，这就是创造力。它们在创造，为自己建造水坝和家园。要知道，动物有着各式各样的创造方式。

Now, we started out with cats and we can go into that which you call the house cat. Why do animals get sick? Animals, little kittens, are brought into housing situations where there is no other cat around.
最初我们以猫为例，现在可以谈谈你们所谓的家猫。动物为什么会生病？当幼猫被带入没有其他猫存在的室内环境时...

So, what the cat does, because it doesn’t have another cat to mimic, it has its “catness”, but it mimics another human. You have a neighbor behind you that hurt his leg or back or something and he was sick. What did his dog do? They had to take the dog to the veterinarian because the dog began limping, just like the man.
由于缺乏同类可模仿，猫咪会保留"猫性"，但转而模仿人类。假设你身后有位邻居腿或背部受伤生病了，他的狗会怎样？主人不得不带狗去看兽医，因为狗开始像主人一样跛行。

See how animals mimic humans? But humans only mimic humans. Because they’re not put into foreign environment situations of another human that they attain to be. They attain to be another human that they can see or read about or get information about. To be what they want to be and what they want to experience.
看到动物如何模仿人类了吗？但人类只模仿人类。因为他们不会被置于渴望成为的另一个人类的陌生环境中。他们通过观察、阅读或获取信息来模仿可见的人类形象，以此实现自我期待和体验渴望。

That’s why you can take a chimpanzee and put it with a human for years. Then the chimpanzee will mimic. And you seem to think that you came from chimpanzees – boy that’s a stretch.
这就是为什么黑猩猩与人类共同生活数年后会模仿人类行为。而你们竟认为人类起源于黑猩猩——这种联想实在牵强。

I mean, an animal was originally “birthed” in its animal form, whatever animal it happens to be. The birds, the fish, that was the same thing. They were “birthed” as what they were to be. Now, the variations of, that which you call, a bird form comes from those that are working with the particles, the atoms, the holograms, putting together, that which you call, birds.
我是说，动物最初就是以它们的动物形态"诞生"的，不论具体是什么物种。鸟类也好，鱼类也罢，本质都是如此。它们"诞生"时便已注定成为其应有的形态。至于你们所称的鸟类形态的变体，则源自那些操控粒子、原子和全息影像的存在，由它们组合成了所谓的鸟类。

This particular bird will be, what you call, an eagle. The next one will be a canary. But, the canary and the eagle, when they get them to form what they think, Oh, that’s good enough, okay now that goes into that, which you call, physicality and continues “its” evolution. The same with the canary. The same with plants. The same with everything.
这只特定的鸟将成为你们所说的鹰。下一只则会成为金丝雀。但当造物者觉得鹰的形态"差不多了，可以定型了"，这种形态就会进入你们所称的物质界，继续"它"的进化历程。金丝雀如此，植物如此，万物皆然。

Nothing is different. It’s what was originally created. It is given as a form to be put on the planet to experience its own evolutionary process, just as you are.
本质上毫无二致。这都是最初被创造的模样。这些形态被赋予到地球上，就是为了体验各自的进化历程——正如你们人类一样。

JOHN: There is no great and general plan, it’s just an experience.
约翰：并不存在什么宏大而统一的计划，这不过是场体验罢了。

DATRE: That’s right. There is no… because a creator only wants to create to create for the experience. That’s where you, as humans on your planet, have lost your ability of spontaneous creativity.
DATRE：没错。没有…因为创造者只是为了体验而创造。这正是你们地球上的人类失去自发创造力的地方。

It is those that work in situations where they can work from the standpoint of spontaneous creativity that find the most joy in their lives. Regardless of what field of endeavor it is in. Whatever you want to be involved in. But it’s the creative process that brings the greatest happiness.
那些能够在自发创造的基础上工作的人，无论从事什么领域，无论想参与什么，都能在生活中找到最大的快乐。正是创造的过程带来了最大的幸福。

Then when the creative process is stifled in an individual, because all they do is follow, instead of being bold and creative, the one that just follows is the one that gets depressed and discouraged and all of these other things. Because all they are doing is following. They are not being dynamic creators.
当一个人的创造过程被扼杀时，因为他们只会跟随，而不是大胆创新，那个只会跟随的人就会变得沮丧、气馁，产生所有这些负面情绪。因为他们所做的只是跟随。他们不是充满活力的创造者。

You were created with joy and happiness. That was the creative process and it still is with anybody that is creating on any level of, that which you call, creator physicality. It doesn’t stop. That is why, you are in a constant state of discovering something “new” on your planet.
你们是被欢乐和幸福创造出来的。这就是创造的过程，对于任何在你们所谓的物质层面进行创造的人来说，这仍然是如此。它不会停止。这就是为什么你们的地球上不断有"新"事物被发现。

Oh, we didn’t know that was there before. Well, maybe it wasn’t. How do you know but what a creator hadn’t just put that there the day before yesterday? You see how your physical brains work and how we’re trying to get you to realize that, yes, this is the way your physical brain works. But, don’t lock yourselves into that which has to be – because. Nothing has to be – because.
哦，我们之前都不知道那里有东西。也许它本来就不存在。你怎么能确定那不是造物主前天刚放在那儿的呢？你看得见自己的物质大脑如何运作，我们正试图让你们意识到——没错，这就是你们物质大脑的运行方式。但别把自己禁锢在"必须如此"的框架里。因为，从来没有什么"必须如此"。

You are given a containment for experience and for creativity in whatever way you want to do it. This is entirely up to you and it has nothing to do with anyone else living on the planet. It is your own individual, psychological, construct that you are experiencing and no one else’s.
你们被赋予了一个容器，用来盛放体验和创造力，想怎么用都行。这完全取决于你自己，与地球上其他任何人都无关。这是你个人正在经历的心理建构，只属于你一个人。

So find the richness. Remember, everything on this planet has been created in a containment for experience at whatever level. Even to somebody would say; Well, who created sand?
所以去寻找丰盛吧。记住，这个星球上的一切都是为了不同层级的体验而被创造在容器里的。甚至有人会问：那么，是谁创造了沙子？

I’ll tell you who created sand and how it was created. In the beginning when we began to put “particles” together and found that they would “stick”. We would put a couple of particles together; Oh, those stick together. Oh, that was fun. Top it. Oh, this was fun. Make some more.
让我告诉你沙子的创造者和创造过程。最初当我们开始把"粒子"组合在一起时，发现它们会"粘住"。我们把几个粒子组合起来：哦，它们粘在一起了。真好玩。再加点。哦，这个有趣。再做些更多吧。

You had all these particles You had all these particles, so what you did was put them on – somebody made the planet – so lets put a hunk of it here. You got rid of that and then play with something else.
你拥有所有这些粒子，你拥有所有这些粒子，于是你所做的就是将它们放置——有人创造了这颗行星——那么让我们在这里放一大块。你摆脱了那个，然后玩弄其他东西。

You see, creativity is fun. It’s an ever evolving process. That’s why you can say; Well, so many years ago this was a sea or a lake and now it’s nothing but sand. Now we have a lake over here that was never there before. Well, how come? It’s all movement. But you see it as solid. That has come from the eons of evolution in the physical construct.
你看，创造力很有趣。这是一个不断进化的过程。这就是为什么你可以说；嗯，很多年前这里是一片海洋或湖泊，而现在只剩下沙子。现在我们这边有一个以前从未存在过的湖泊。那么，这是怎么回事？一切都在运动。但你却将其视为固体。这源自物质构造中亿万年的进化。

You have the genes and the Mind that has all of this in your individual, shall we say, memory patterning. So you can’t not think of yourself as not being solid and not experiencing.
你拥有基因和心智，这些都在你个体的记忆模式中。所以你无法不认为自己不是固体，也无法不体验。

That’s where, at one point in time, you didn’t have the vivid colors that you have now. Your colors are brilliant. It’s simply because that is what you had decided. Some one made a change her with some element and they say; Well we put this paint together and we put that paint together and look what we came up with.
在某个时间点，你还没有现在这样鲜艳的色彩。你的色彩绚丽夺目。这仅仅是因为那是你决定的。有人用某种元素在这里做了改变，他们说；嗯，我们把这种颜料和那种颜料混合在一起，看看我们得到了什么。

Well, that’s fine, because that’s the way that different areas have evolved in that which you call color. Which you never had before. Then if you could see yourself as we see you, you still would see just squiggly lines.
好吧，这很正常，因为这就是你们所谓的"色彩"在不同领域演化的方式。这是你们从前从未拥有过的。即便你能像我们这样观察自己，看到的依然只会是弯弯曲曲的线条。

But, that isn’t the way you have evolved and that is why you have the “richness” of your evolution and you don’t even want to pay any attention to it.
但你们的演化路径并非如此，正因如此你们才拥有如此"丰富"的进化历程——而你们甚至都不愿稍加留意。

We are Datre
我们是道瑞

THOUGHTS AND THINKS
思维与念想

DATRE: (MARCH 2003) Thoughts (thinks) are things actually, in that they have a triggering action within the body that stimulates your whole hormonal structures. Then that hormonal structure in turn changes that which you call your viruses in your body.
DATRE（2003 年 3 月）：念想（思维）实质上是具象化的存在，它们能在体内产生触发反应，刺激你们的整个荷尔蒙系统。而这些荷尔蒙结构又会改变你们体内所谓的病毒。

DATRE: Now, the big difference between thinks and thoughts is that “thinks” are entirely bodily oriented. Thoughts are different than thinks. Now, the “thinks” within the body – that which you “think” has a direct correlation to your bodily functions.
DATRE：现在，"思维"（thinks）与"思想"（thoughts）的最大区别在于——"思维"是完全基于身体的。思想不同于思维。身体内部的"思维"——即你所"思考"的内容——会直接影响身体机能。

In other words, the “thinks” that you think within the body, changes the hormonal structure of the body and changes the viruses within the body and change the cell structure within the body.
换句话说，你在身体内部产生的"思维"会改变身体的激素结构，改变体内的病毒状态，并改变细胞组织结构。

That is one of the things that people ask; Why did I get this disease? Or, how come this or how come that? And how come some people can cure their bodies without medication? Then some people take all kinds of medication and it doesn’t help?
这正是人们常问的问题之一：为什么我会得这种病？或者，为什么这个会发生？为什么那个会发生？为什么有些人不用药物就能治愈身体？而有些人服用各种药物却不见效？

How come some doctors are better than another doctor? All of these things are all related, because it’s all related to, that which you call, your “thinks” process.
为什么有些医生比其他医生更出色？所有这些现象都相互关联，因为它们都与你所谓的"思维"过程有关。

Now, the other thing that is evolved, of course, is your belief system. But, when you “think”, if you’re thinking from that Mass Consciousness which is uplifting, to your physical construct, the “thinks” trigger all of the mechanisms within the body and give the body an exhilarated feeling.
当然，另一个随之进化的就是你的信念体系。但当你"思考"时，如果是从那个提升性的集体意识出发，这些"想法"就会触发身体内部的所有机制，让身体产生一种振奋感。

The reverse is also true. So, to be involved in the creative process, in any way shape or form, that gives you that inner satisfaction, that inner delight, that exhilaration. That in turn works with the body and promotes, that which you call, health.
反之亦然。因此，以任何形式参与创造性的过程，只要能带给你那种内在满足感、内在喜悦和振奋感，就会反过来作用于身体，促进你们所谓的健康。

It’s not the running. It’s not the bicycle riding. It’s not diets. It’s not any of those things. It’s the “thinks”. It’s the mental process that works with the physical construct. At this particular time your bodies are going through many changes due to the changes in the energy construct. You can see how fighting changes within the physical construct is not in any way conducive to allowing the body to do what it needs to do in order to work with the new energies.
关键不在于跑步，不在于骑自行车，不在于节食，与这些都无关。真正重要的是"想法"，是与身体构造协同运作的心理过程。在这个特殊时期，由于能量结构的变化，你们的身体正经历诸多改变。你可以看出，抗拒身体构造的变化，根本无助于让身体完成它需要配合新能量完成的工作。

It may cause discomfort. But, the more you focus on the creative process, the more beneficial it will be to the body to absorb these new energies and work with them.
这可能会带来不适。但你越专注于创造性的过程，身体就越能受益于吸收这些新能量并与之协同运作。

DATRE: You have so conditioned your bodies that even when you sleep you try to monitor your experiences. We have said that before. But, what you’re doing, when you’re in the dream state you are actually tuning into your different experience patterning, you’re exploring your different plays. But, your body automatically responds to different frequencies, shall we say, on many different levels.
DATRE：你们已经对身体形成了如此强烈的条件反射，以至于即使在睡眠中也试图监控自己的体验。我们之前提到过这点。但事实上，当你们处于梦境状态时，你们正在调谐到不同的经验模式中，探索着不同的剧本。而你们的身体会自动对——我们可以称之为——多种层面的不同频率作出反应。

They talk about your out of body travel. What happens is, your make up of your body biology has mechanisms with in it to allow portions of your consciousness to leave your body and return. That mechanism is also in animals as well. They can go out and come back in just like you.
他们谈论你们的出体旅行。实际情况是，你们身体的生物构造内置有某种机制，允许部分意识离开身体并返回。这种机制同样存在于动物身上。它们也能像你们一样进出自由。

Then when you go out of your body your consciousness perceives many different kinds of experiences. But the thing is, when you come back into the body again, you have structured your physical construct to the point that you immediately conform it to what your established criteria is for you so that it becomes a rational experience.
当你们离开身体时，意识会感知到多种不同的体验。关键在于，当你们重新回到身体后，你们已经将物质构造塑造成会立即将其符合你们既定认知标准的形态，从而使它成为合理化体验。

But what you have “actually” experienced is something far greater than what you perceive when you’re in the body and you think of it. You put your experiences into a box, shall we say, and say; Well this is what happened and that is what happened.
但你"实际"经历的远比身处肉身时所感知的更为宏大。你把经历装进一个盒子，姑且这么说，然后断言：这就是发生的全部。

But your consciousness, when in an out of body experience, experiences far beyond what you could ever imagine. That is the same for sleep. But the thing is, because you have refined your body to the point that everything has to go through your established belief system. You won’t allow yourself any latitude in these areas.
但当意识处于出体状态时，其体验远超你的想象。睡眠时也是如此。问题在于，你把身体修炼得如此精微，以至于所有体验都必须通过你既定的信念体系过滤。你拒绝在这些领域给自己任何自由探索的空间。

That is why we are saying; The more that you allow, the grander your experience in the physical can be. The consciousness is not restricting you in any way. The consciousness explores in various, in numerous, ways. But you pull it in so tightly to the body and say; Oh, well this has to be this because, this is what I believe.
正因如此我们要说：你越是允许自己放开限制，物质世界的体验就越壮丽。意识从未以任何方式束缚你。意识会以千万种方式探索。但你却把它紧紧束缚在肉身里，坚持说：哦，这必须是这样的，因为我相信就是如此。

So you see how you don’t allow yourself the expansion that the body contains within its very nature of its biology.
现在你该明白，你是如何压抑了这具肉身与生俱来的生物学扩张潜能。

DATRE: Now, the out of body experiences, or the dreams, which ever you want to call it, are expanding experiences. In other words, in not limiting your dreams by so tightly monitoring them, you are allowing your dreams and your consciousness to pickup multitudes of experiences.
DATRE：现在，无论是出体体验还是梦境（随你怎么称呼），它们都是拓展性的体验。换句话说，不要通过过度监控来限制你的梦境，这样你才能让梦境和意识获取丰富的体验。

As you allow that to happen, you will change your belief system. Then by changing your belief system you will have more allowance, you will have more different experiences which again changes your belief system and it’s an ongoing process.
当你允许这种情况发生时，你的信念系统就会改变。而信念系统的改变会让你获得更多容许度，体验到更多不同的事物，这反过来又会改变你的信念系统——这是一个持续演进的过程。

Allow the freedom and mobility of you to express and experience, it’s a growing, it’s an expanding, it’s unlimited. The only limiting factor is you in the body pretending that your body has to be thus and so. You’re not allowing your body to experience for your benefit.
允许自己自由流动地去表达和体验，这是一个成长的过程，一个扩展的过程，它是无限的。唯一的限制因素是你困在身体里，假装身体必须如何如何。你没有让身体为你的利益去体验。

JOHN: That’s the whole idea behind keeping dream journals, is to help you to continually expand your ability to experience.
JOHN：记录梦境日志的核心意义就在于此——帮助你持续拓展体验能力。

DATRE: Yes! And the more that you do that, when you begin to watch, you’ll change. That is the changing process. We’re trying to show you all the different ways that you can expand your awareness of that which you are in the physical construct.
DATRE：是的！你越是这样做，当你开始观察时，你就会改变。这就是转变的过程。我们正试图向你们展示各种不同的方式，来扩展你们对所处物质构造的觉知。

JOHN: Becoming more and more of the “real” you.
JOHN：越来越成为"真实"的自己。

DATRE: That is exactly right. Becoming more and more of the real you. That is why we have chosen “observation” as the easiest way to do it. But the thing is, you still don’t allow yourself the “freedom” of your observation.
DATRE：完全正确。越来越成为真实的自己。这就是我们选择"观察"作为最简易方法的原因。但问题是，你们依然不允许自己拥有观察的"自由"。

So, in every instance that we can think of, you have to make everything conform. Then you’ll say; Well that doesn’t mean anything. No! If you don’t look at it for what it is, it doesn’t mean anything. That is what holds you from the development that you seek.
因此在我们能想到的每个例子中，你们总要让一切符合规范。然后你们会说：这没有任何意义。不！如果你不按其本质去看待它，它才没有意义。这正是阻碍你们获得所追求发展的关键。

We are Datre
我们是道瑞

CONSCIOUSNESS UNITS
意识单元

DATRE: (MAY 2004) You see, if we don’t have this down, then we have nothing to work with.
DATRE（2004 年 5 月）：你看，如果我们不把这个概念弄清楚，就无从着手。

JOHN: Yes, the problem that I see with this consciousness whole question, no matter how we define it, so that it’s a LIFE characteristic, it’s these CU’s and EE’s used in the Seth books.
约翰：是的，关于意识这个根本性问题，无论我们如何定义它——既然它是生命的特征——其实就是赛斯书里提到的那些意识单元（CU）和能量精华（EE）。

Now, we had already worked out that the CU’s – we’ve got in our book – are the Anu. Then the Anu under a certain set of conditions turns into a piece of electronics. That takes care of both of those.
我们已经论证过，书中所说的意识单元其实就是阿努（Anu）。而阿努在特定条件下会转化为电子元件，这就同时解释了两者的关系。

That’s how its stated in the Seth books.
赛斯书里是这么说的。

So what we’re talking about here, relative to what consciousness really is, I don’t know how we can accommodate that.
所以我们现在讨论的，关于意识究竟是什么，我不知道该如何理解这个概念。

DATRE: Well, the CU’s. Now those are units of consciousness right?
DATRE：嗯，那些 CU。它们就是意识单元对吧？

JOHN: Right.
JOHN：对。

DATRE: Well what do they do?
DATRE：那么它们具体是做什么的？

JOHN: They do everything. There are the active ingredient in effect.
JOHN：它们无所不能。实质上它们就是活性成分。

DATRE: Well, that’s true. Consciousness would be the active ingredient because…
DATRE：嗯，确实如此。意识就是那个活性成分，因为……

JOHN: But, that ingredient – it isn’t an ingredient, it is the whole thing. If consciousness equates to LIFE then LIFE is not an ingredient.
JOHN：但这个成分——它并非某种成分，而是全部。如果意识等同于生命，那么生命就不是某种成分。

DATRE: No, no. Yes I agree with you. I guess when you start sub-dividing LIFE…
DATRE：不，不。是的，我同意你的观点。我想当你开始细分生命时...

JOHN: Well, we really don’t sub-divide it. We start out at a primal level and build.
JOHN：其实我们并没有细分它。我们从原始层面开始构建。

DATRE: Yes. You begin your primal…
DATRE：是的。你们始于原始...

JOHN: Okay, it works. The Anu is a fundamental result of LIFE.
JOHN：好的，这样说得通。阿努是生命的基本产物。

DATRE: Yes.
DATRE：是的。

JOHN: So, all an Anu is, is LIFE acted upon by
约翰：所以，阿努的本质不过是生命受到

Thought.
思考。

DATRE: That’s right.
DATRE：没错。

JOHN: Then if that isn’t this thing we’re calling consciousness, I’d like to know what is. If you’re relating consciousness to LIFE.
约翰：如果这还不是我们所说的意识，那我想知道什么才是。如果你把意识与生命联系起来的话。

DATRE: That’s right. That’s exactly right. So you see there’s no… I was thinking about splitting that up. But what I was going to say, when you put Thought into it, you’re breaking up that which you call LIFE. You’re making something different out of that because you have two somethings so already you’re adding to it, but you’re also dividing it.
DATRE：没错，完全正确。你看，其实并没有……我原本考虑过拆分这个概念。但我想说的是，当你将"思维"注入其中时，实际上是在分割你们所谓的"生命"。你正在将其改造成不同的形态，因为现在有了两个独立存在，你既是在增添又是在分裂它。

JOHN: So, the Anu has to be the unit of consciousness. It has no choice.
约翰：所以，阿努必须是意识的单位。它别无选择。

DATRE: No it doesn’t.
DATRE：确实如此。

JOHN: That’s what we have said in one of the Datre books. I know we’ve said that.
约翰：我们在某本 Datre 书籍中说过这话。我记得我们确实提到过。

DATRE: There’s nothing wrong with that.
DATRE：这个说法完全正确。

JOHN: Okay, but I have to mull that one over.
约翰：好吧，这个问题我得好好琢磨琢磨。

DATRE: Now, what is an EE?
达崔：那么，什么是 EE？

JOHN: An EE is a certain stage of dynamics of an Anu. What science calls an electron is an Anu. The Anu makes a shift or transition of itself. As Seth has said, chemical and electronics are the same things, just like steam and water are the same things.
约翰：EE 是阿努粒子动态变化的某个阶段。科学界所称的电子其实就是阿努粒子。阿努粒子会进行自我转变或跃迁。就像赛斯说的，化学和电子学本质相同，就像蒸汽和水本质相同。

So, they are the same things under different conditions.
所以说，它们只是不同条件下的同一种存在。

DATRE: That’s right.
DATRE：没错。

JOHN: That’s what I’m talking about with the EE.
约翰：这就是我在谈论 EE 时所指的。

DATRE: Alright.
DATRE：好的。

JOHN: A CU can build chemicals just like in the book “Occult Chemistry” and an EE build what we refer to as electricity and electronics. So we’re talking about the one thing doing everything.
约翰：一个 CU 可以构建化学物质，就像《神秘化学》这本书里描述的那样，而 EE 则构建我们所说的电力和电子设备。所以我们讨论的是同一事物实现所有功能。

DATRE: Alright. Right, right. So, that’s good because we have not…
DATRE：好的。对，对。这很好，因为我们还没有...

JOHN: The only problem that we have is to define, in very specific ways, what this term consciousness means so far as Datre is concerned.
约翰：我们唯一需要解决的问题是，就 Datre 而言，要以非常具体的方式定义"意识"这个术语的含义。

DATRE: That’s right.
DATRE：没错。

JOHN: It is NOT Webster’s or sciences definition. I’m surprised that wasn’t used before, that this was NOT Webster’s or sciences definition of consciousness. That was never said, because it obviously wasn’t from the very beginning of the Seth material. Because we’re talking about something that science and …
约翰：这并非韦氏词典或科学界的定义。我很惊讶之前没人指出这点——这根本不是韦氏词典或科学界对"意识"的定义。之所以从未被提及，显然是因为从一开始赛斯资料就与之不同。因为我们讨论的是科学和...

DATRE: But, we never got into that. We just accepted the words that were available and everyone knew. Everyone knows, because science has used it for so long. As we have said before, we never expected to get into this depth.
道瑞：但我们从未深入这点。我们只是采用了现有且众所周知的词汇。大家都明白，毕竟科学界已沿用这个术语太久。如我们之前所言，从未预料会探讨到如此深度。

JOHN: But I don’t know how you could avoid it. Right off the bat, very, very early on Seth talked about gestalts making consciousness grow. Heck, that is the fundamental. That tells how things become.
约翰：但我不明白如何能避开这点。早在最初期，赛斯就不断提及"格式塔"促使意识成长。见鬼，这才是根本所在。它揭示了万物形成的原理。

You start of with one Anu and how many Anu do you have in any given something. You’ve got a gestalt. That’s all this is, is gestalts.
从一个阿努粒子开始，任何存在物中都包含着无数阿努粒子。你拥有一个格式塔。万物本质皆是格式塔的聚合。

DATRE: That’s right, that’s absolutely right.
DATRE：没错，完全正确。

JOHN: There is no singular anything.
JOHN：不存在任何单一的事物。

DATRE: No!
DATRE：没有！

JOHN: So gestalts always grow LIFE.
JOHN：因此完形总是孕育生命。

DATRE: Expand LIFE.
DATRE：扩展生命。

JOHN: But, you see, that point was never made.
JOHN：但你看，这一点从未被提及。

DATRE: No!
DATRE：没有！

JOHN: Nobody that I’ve ever heard, including myself ever challenged it, except I did this time.
JOHN：据我所知，包括我自己在内，从未有人质疑过这一点，除了这次我提出了质疑。

DATRE: Well, that’s fine. But I think what you should do, is that very good information that you’ve got right there. We can use that as a basis to expand and work from. And also the awareness factor.
DATRE：很好。但我认为你应该这样做——你手头掌握的那些信息非常宝贵。我们可以以此为基础进行扩展和深入探讨。此外还有觉知这个因素。

JOHN: Awareness is a different thing too.
JOHN：觉知又是另一回事。

DATRE: That is entirely different. Awareness has to do with an individuality.
DATRE：那完全是不同的概念。觉知关乎个体性。

JOHN: The uniqueness. The awareness relates to uniqueness.
JOHN：独特性。觉知与独特性相关。

DATRE: Yes! It is the uniqueness of any given…
DATRE：是的！这是任何特定存在的独特性……

JOHN: Gestalt, because there is no such thing as singular.
JOHN：格式塔，因为不存在所谓单一的事物。

DATRE: Correct.
DATRE：正确。

JOHN: That’s another thing. There is no such thing as singular.
JOHN：这是另一个要点。世间不存在所谓单一的事物。

DATRE: No, it cannot be.
DATRE：不，那不可能。

JOHN: In fact, you can’t even find a single Anu.
JOHN：事实上，你甚至找不到一个单独的阿努。

DATRE: No!
DATRE：不可能！

JOHN: Because they don’t deal singularly.
JOHN：因为他们不以个体形式存在。

DATRE: They can’t.
DATRE：他们做不到。

JOHN: That’s right, their fundamental character will not allow that.
JOHN：没错，他们的本质特性不允许那样做。

DATRE: But you can see the individual Anu. But it’s always part of a group.
DATRE：但你能看到单个的 Anu。只不过它永远是群体的一部分。

JOHN: Just like you can discern an individual atom to some degree, but its part of a group.
JOHN：就像你某种程度上能辨别单个原子，但它仍属于某个群体。

DATRE: That’s right.
DATRE：没错。

JOHN: In fact it’s a cluster in and of itself.
约翰：事实上它本身就是一个集群。

DATRE: That is correct. What we need to do in our next book dealing with human development, is explain in the very beginning that Datre’s definition of consciousness is that it is “LIFE ESSENCE”.
达崔：没错。在我们下一本关于人类发展的书中，我们需要在一开始就说明，达崔对意识的定义是"生命本质"。

We should also state that the word consciousness as we intend for it to mean, has nothing to do with Mr. Webster’s or sciences meaning of that word.
我们还应该声明，我们所使用的"意识"这个词的含义，与韦伯斯特先生或科学界对该词的定义毫无关联。

JOHN: We also need to do something about the terms “self conscious” and “subconscious” because these terms don’t fit now with usual definitions.
约翰：我们还需要对"自我意识"和"潜意识"这些术语做些说明，因为这些术语现在与通常的定义不符。

DATRE: Correct. There really is no such thing as “Self consciousness” or “subconscious”, so we can explain these in new ways in the beginning along with the overall thing on consciousness.
DATRE：没错。实际上并不存在所谓的"自我意识"或"潜意识"，因此我们可以用新的方式来解释这些概念，同时也会从头阐述关于意识的整体概念。

Self consciousness is really Self awareness. Its sort of like the words “idea” and “thinks”. If you were to go into or inside of the word “Self awareness” you would discover it is a different expression of consciousness itself, only individualized or personalized.
自我意识实质上是自我觉知。这有点像"想法"和"思考"这两个词的关系。如果你深入探究"自我觉知"这个词的内涵，会发现它其实就是意识本身的另一种表达形式，只不过带有个体化或个人化的特征。

Just as we have said with the word “idea” if you were to go inside that word you would find the “Thought” from which the idea came. Or even the word “thinks” which are the result of Thought “fragments” instead of whole thoughts.
就像我们讨论"想法"这个词时所说的，如果你深入这个词的本质，就会发现产生这个想法的"思维"。甚至"思考"这个词，它也是思维"片段"而非完整思维所产生的结果。

JOHN: So what do we do with the word subconscious?
JOHN：那么我们应该如何理解"潜意识"这个词呢？

DATRE: That we should call just diffused awareness. A level of awareness that is not fully focused.
DATRE：我们不妨称之为弥散觉知。这是一种未完全聚焦的觉知状态。

Now, there is a little exercise that you might try.
这里有个小练习你可以尝试。

First say the words “Self conscious” to your self and see what you get as a feeling of the body.
首先对自己说出"自我意识"这个词，感受身体产生的反应。

Then say the words “Self aware” and see what you get for a feeling of the body. They should result in two different types of feeling about the body.
接着说出"自我觉知"这个词，再体会身体的感受变化。这两个词应该会引发身体两种不同的感受状态。

JOHN: Okay, I’ll try that and let you know what I get.
约翰：好的，我会试试看然后告诉你结果。

PHYSICALITY
物质性

DATRE: (JULY 2004) The big question today is,“how do I get out of here?”. Well, the thing is, I’d like to ask the question, “how do you think you got in here?”.
DATRE：（2004 年 7 月）当今最大的问题是"我该如何离开这里？"。但我想反问的是："你认为自己是怎么来到这里的？"

JOHN: We dealt with that in the book “how did I get to be me?”.
约翰：我们在《我是如何成为我的？》这本书里探讨过这个问题。

DATRE: Yes, but what we didn’t take into account – how did I get in here. You were not all made here on this planet. So, what I’m saying is; “how did you get in here?” begs the question There are many of you on this planet that came from other places.
DATRE：是的，但我们没有考虑到的是——我是怎么来到这里的。你们并非全都在这个星球上被创造。所以我要说的是："你们如何来到此处？"这个提问引出了关键——这个星球上有许多人是从其他地方来的。

Now, there are those that were originally made as little stick figures here and they made this into… made a planet and put some of them on there. Then there were other planets where they put other stick figures on. Because, there were gillions of those making up planetary environments of different kinds.
最初有些生命是以简笔小人的形态在这里被创造，他们将这里改造成...创造了一个星球并把部分小人安置其上。后来其他星球也安置了不同的简笔小人。因为当时有无数这样的存在，构成了各式各样的行星环境。

JOHN: Then by the same token, all of those that were originally made here have in the interim gone to other places and returned.
JOHN：同理可证，所有最初在这里被创造的存有，在此期间也都去过其他地方并返回。

DATRE: That’s right. And there are those that have not returned. Because you are constantly in the process of development of self.
DATRE：没错。也有些存有未曾归来。因为你们始终处于自我发展的进程中。

The name of this game is, wanting to know, wanting to experience.
这个游戏的名字叫：渴望知晓，渴望体验。

So, in order to maintain that which you call a physical containment on a planet, there were different “types” of bodily containments, shall we say,. that are on different planets as you call them, for different experiences.
因此，为了维持你们所谓的行星物质禁锢，可以说存在着不同"类型"的肉身禁锢——分布在你们所称的不同星球上，用于不同的体验目的。

Then, because have a planet where you have many different physical expressions on the planet. That does not mean that every planet that you go to is going to anything like this one. Because this one is uniquely different. Just as every other planet that you will visit or want to visit is uniquely different.
要知道，你们所在的这颗行星上存在着多种物质形态表达，但这并不意味着你们前往的每颗行星都会与这里相似。因为这里是独一无二的，就像你们将要造访或渴望造访的其他每颗行星也都独具特色。

Every planet that you experience – first you need to know – what, shall we say, the rules of that planet are. In other words, if you’re going to come and have an earth existence, you have to know that this is a planet of opposites. You have black/white, yes/no, good/bad, everything that’s an opposite to everything for you to “push” against. Both physically and mentally.
每颗你要体验的行星——首先需要了解——我们可以说，要明白那颗行星的规则。换句话说，如果你要来地球体验生存，就必须知道这是个二元对立的星球。这里有黑/白、是/否、善/恶，所有事物都存在对立面供你们在物质和精神层面去"对抗"。

Now, just because this planet is set up as opposites, that does not mean that any other planetary existence will have that kind of set up. They might have to some degree. This is the maximum if this expression of opposites.
虽然这个星球被设置为对立面，但这并不意味着其他行星存在也会采用同样的设置。它们可能在一定程度上存在对立，但这里展现的是对立性的极致表达。

Now, you’ll say, well what do those people do when they want to go to sleep? They sleep. But they are not in the same physical container that you are either. So their sleeping is entirely different.
你可能会问：那这些人想睡觉时怎么办呢？他们当然也睡觉。只不过他们所处的物质载体与你们完全不同，因此他们的睡眠方式也截然不同。

JOHN: But they’re sleeping all the time, there isn’t a time when you’re not asleep. This is a dream. Then we call the non dream a dream. We’ve got things inside out.
约翰：但他们其实无时无刻不在"睡眠"中，根本没有所谓的"清醒时刻"。当下就是一场梦境。而我们却把非梦境状态称为梦境，完全本末倒置了。

DATRE: Yes. Yes, very definitely. But, you see, you are experiencing and your experience that you remember – to be able to work in physicality – is the only one that you call ‘awake’. But it is still nothing more nor nothing less than a dream.
DATRE：确实如此。但你要明白，你们所经历的、以及为了能在物质界运作而记住的那些体验，被你们唯一认定为"清醒状态"。然而究其本质，这依然不过是一场梦境罢了。

But, this expression uses what you call the awake part of the dream as what you work with. Then because of the way that this is set up you have to have that in order to express, because that is the way your planet is.
但是，这种表达方式将你们所谓的"清醒梦境"部分作为创作素材。由于你们星球的固有设定，必须通过这种形式才能实现表达。

On other planets, that is not necessarily the case. They are working, on different planets, from different experiential patterning.
在其他星球上未必如此。不同星球的存有们正基于各自独特的体验模式进行创作。

We thank you.
我们感谢你。

We are Datre
我们是道瑞

HUMANITY
人类

DATRE: (AUG. 2005) What I was beginning to say, and I think you better turn your radio off because its going to interfere.
DATRE：（2005 年 8 月）我正要开始说，建议你最好关掉收音机，因为它会产生干扰。

As the human concept began to result in complex individuals, those, in what we call the little stick figures, began to accumulate more data in that which you call your brain, by taking in what some of these other people had giving them.
随着人类概念逐渐形成复杂的个体，那些被我们称为"小棍人"的存在，开始通过吸收他人传递的信息，在你们称之为大脑的器官中积累更多数据。

They got tired of doing things that other people had set up for them. They wanted to do their own things. Then of course at that time they laid out a lot of possibilities and probabilities for them to choose from.
他们厌倦了按照他人设定的方式行事，渴望创造属于自己的事物。当然在那个时期，宇宙已为他们铺设了大量可供选择的可能性和概率路径。

They found great fascination in being able to pick and choose and put things together. That became very, very fascinating.
他们发现挑选、抉择并将事物组合的过程充满无穷魅力。这种体验变得极其、极其令人着迷。

But the thing is, they started going so fast that they were getting all muddled and they weren’t doing anything except playing games and going around in circles.
但问题是，他们开始行动得太快，以至于一切都变得混乱不堪，除了玩游戏和原地打转外，他们什么正经事都没干。

So the decision was made, since they couldn’t do everything at once, in order to pacify them they separated the games.
于是大家决定，既然无法同时处理所有事情，为了安抚他们，就把游戏分开进行。

Then because of the games that they choose, some would choose, shall we say, the positive and others chose the negative ones.
后来由于各自选择的游戏不同——有些人选择了我们可以称之为积极的游戏，而另一些人则选了消极的那种。

They separated themselves automatically. Although they all looked the same, they separated themselves into their desire of what they wanted to experience and play with.
他们自然而然地分道扬镳了。尽管外表看起来都一样，但根据各自想要体验和玩耍的欲望，他们自动划分成了不同阵营。

This is what developed into a gender. You found that basically, one group would all choose certain types of games to play, and another group would take different games to play.
这逐渐演变成了性别差异。你会发现，基本上一个群体会选择特定类型的游戏，而另一个群体会选择不同的游戏。

So their choice of possibilities and probabilities became very much separated. Eventually, there was this wanting to be together because they felt that they were only half of something. That eventually
因此他们对可能性与概率的选择逐渐分化。最终，他们产生了结合的渴望，因为感觉自身只是某种完整存在的一半。这种渴望最终

developed into what you now have as the two sexes, male and female.
发展成了你们现在所知的两种性别——男性和女性。

Now, because of the choices of possibilities and probabilities being fairly well established, you found that the male pretty much went to things that were more of the “outward” expression. In other words, things that were separated from them. Something they did “with” their possibilities and probabilities.
由于可能性与概率的选择模式已相当固化，你会发现男性更倾向于选择那些"外向型"的表达方式。换句话说，他们选择那些能与自身分离的事物，通过可能性与概率去"作用于"某些对象。

While the female began to choose possibilities and probabilities that were more of an “inside expression”, internal nurturing type of possibilities and probabilities that they choose for them selves. And you’re still expressing a negative and positive relationship.
当女性开始选择那些更偏向"内在表达"、内在滋养类型的可能性与概率时，你们仍然在表达一种消极与积极并存的关系。

So, you can see, as this developed, you began to have the men that would build buildings and hunt and fish, where the women would stay home and take care of the children. That was just a natural development. That is a development of the species.
因此你们可以看到，随着这种发展演变，逐渐形成了男性负责建造房屋、狩猎捕鱼，而女性留守家中照料孩童的格局。这是自然演化的结果，属于物种发展的必然阶段。

Then, as that has continued, you will find that as the industrial revolution came into being, the male maintained that dominant factor of the external, the mechanical. The airplanes, the cars, the boats, the guns, anything that was machine oriented.
随着这种模式延续至今，你们会发现工业革命兴起后，男性依然保持着对外部机械领域的主导权——无论是飞机、汽车、船舶还是枪械，凡是与机械相关的领域。

Where as the women were, like way back, were relegated to staying home, taking care of the children, taking care of the house and other things.
而女性则如同远古时期那样，被限定在操持家务、养育子女以及料理其他家庭事务的范畴内。

Then when you went into that which you call your second world war, that was the big thrust that changed a great deal of that which had previously been a male dominant society of mechanics. The men couldn’t fight and make the machines at the same time.
当你们进入所谓的第二次世界大战时，这场大规模冲突彻底改变了先前由男性主导的机械工业社会。男人们无法同时参战又制造机器。

So the women were opened up to a new possibility and probability of expanding their awareness in a different field. Up to this time they worked in offices and worked as secretaries and so forth.
于是女性获得了在全新领域拓展认知的可能性。在此之前她们只能从事办公室文员或秘书等工作。

But, this gave them an opportunity to learn something brand new. Get them out of the house, give them their freedom to do something else.
但这为她们提供了学习全新技能的机会。让她们走出家庭，获得追求其他事业的自由。

If you would look back into the time when women would in, what you now call your ancient times, why did women love horses to the extent that they did? Because that was their one chance of being able to get out and away from the household environment and gain freedom by getting on a horse and riding someplace.
若回溯到你们称为古代的时代，为何女性对马匹如此痴迷？因为那是她们唯一能逃离家庭环境、通过骑马远行获得自由的机会。

So you see, it has been a continuing developmental process.
由此可见，这是一个持续发展的过程。

Now, in today’s world you see women in male roles. You have women who are heads of banks and different companies that are working in what not too long ago was a mans world.
如今在这个时代，女性正扮演着传统男性角色。我们看到女性担任银行行长、各类公司高管，这些职位在不久之前还完全是男性的天下。

We still say they face a “glass ceiling”, but they are into a world that previously had not been open to women in any way, shape or form. They weren’t even allowed to think about such things let alone be achieving them.
虽然我们仍说她们面临"玻璃天花板"的阻碍，但她们确实进入了那个曾经以任何形式都对女性紧闭大门的领域。过去女性连想都不敢想这些事，更别说实现了。

Now you find you have husbands who are staying home and taking care of children because that is what they enjoy doing. Then the women are the ones going out and making a living and working in the businesses and having their own businesses. The male is still as male as he ever was and the female is as female as she ever was.
现在你会发现，有些丈夫选择留在家中照顾孩子，因为他们享受这样的生活。而女性则外出谋生、投身商界、自主创业。男性依然保持着阳刚本色，女性也始终不失阴柔特质。

There’s still the joining of the family but it is taking on the opposite role. That’s another means of expression.
家族纽带依然存在，但正在扮演相反的角色。这是另一种表达方式。

This is what you call development. Constant change, nothing stays the same.
这就是所谓的发展。持续变化，无一成不变。

So what happens is, because there has been a thrust in that direction and probably more in these United States then there has been in other countries, by opening up through the internet and between the young people about possibilities and probabilities others see how different people in the United States are living differently than people in other countries.
实际情况是，由于这种趋势的推动（在美国可能比其他国家的力度更大），通过互联网和年轻人之间的交流，人们看到了各种可能性。其他国家的人开始注意到美国人与他们的生活方式有多么不同。

It is opening up the women in other countries to possibilities and probabilities that have been denied them. Then they are breaking away from their mould to become themselves.
这让其他国家的女性看到了曾被剥夺的可能性。于是她们打破固有模式，开始活出自我。

This is their desire, their longing, to allow me to be me in whatever capacity I want to be me.
这是他们的愿望，他们的渴望，让我能够以任何我想要的方式成为我自己。

So you can see how over that which you call your period of linear time, a great many changes have come about.
所以你可以看到，在你们所谓的线性时间周期内，已经发生了许多巨大的变化。

So now, its very different for a woman to pick the possibilities or probabilities of being a doctor, of being a lawyer, of being the head of a bank, of being the head of a corporation, or whatever they so desire.
因此现在，女性选择成为医生、律师、银行行长、公司高管或是任何她们渴望的职业的可能性已经大不相同了。

Then in turn, the man has taken a different role. You’ll find that men in restaurants that are carrying the children in, are setting the children next to them. They’re feeding the children and the woman is sitting there enjoying her meal. This is role reversal.
相应地，男性也承担了不同的角色。你会发现餐厅里抱着孩子进来的男性，他们会把孩子放在身边。他们喂孩子吃饭，而女性则坐在那里享用她的餐点。这就是角色互换。

But, the man only does that because he desires to do that.
但，这个男人这么做只是因为他渴望这么做。

JOHN: There are now male secretaries and male nurses.
约翰：现在有男秘书和男护士了。

DATRE: There are male secretaries and there are male nurses. Goodness, there never was such a thing as a male nurse not too long ago, in the experience of many who are living on this planet at this time.
DATRE：确实存在男秘书和男护士。天哪，就在不久之前，对于当下生活在这个星球上的许多人而言，男护士这种职业还闻所未闻。

That is a comparatively new thing. For a male to take on the role of nurse.
那是个相对新兴的现象——男性承担护士的角色。

So you see, there are many changes and people don’t pay that much attention to them because they’re not observing what is going on.
由此可见，许多变化正在发生，但人们并未给予足够关注，因为他们没有留心观察周遭的变化。

JOHN: … that’s where the scientists get the impression that the Sahara Desert was a vast forest at one time. That is a bleed-through from another reality where in fact it is a forest.
约翰：……这就是为什么科学家们会产生撒哈拉沙漠曾是一片广袤森林的印象。这其实是另一个现实层面的信息渗透——在那个现实中，那里确实是一片森林。

DATRE: It still exists.
DATRE：它依然存在。

JOHN: That’s what I said, its still a forest. Each reality in the layering of realities effects other realities in subtle ways.
约翰：这正是我说的，那里至今仍是森林。现实层面的层层叠叠中，每个现实都会以微妙的方式影响着其他现实。

DATRE: Yes, yes, and the thing is, that in order to, shall we say, maintain your stability of a physical construct and your, what you call your mental stability, is you have to “block” these other realities and stay focused within the reality that you are in at the present time.
DATRE：是的，关键在于——为了维持你们物理构造的稳定性，以及你们所谓的精神稳定性——你们必须"屏蔽"其他现实层面，将注意力集中在当下所处的现实中。

Now, what happens is, someone will say, “I just know I’ve been someplace else but I don’t know where I’ve been”. You hear that all the time.
常有人会说："我明明感觉自己去了别处，却说不清去了哪里"——这种情形你们经常能听到。

What happens is, you are constantly searching out new realities. You, as you, go and experience them, then come back into this physical construct. The physical construct, the brain, it feels a difference in the vibratory construct, but it can’t put a picture on it.
实际情况是：你们不断探索着新现实。作为体验者的你会前往那些层面经历一番，再返回这个物理构造体。物理构造体（即大脑）能感知到振动结构的差异，却无法将其具象化。

That is what keeps you here until you wake up one morning and you’re someplace else, but the someplace else is very familiar. You don’t jump from here to ump-de-ump realities beyond until you are able to transition and not be clinging on to this particular physical construct.
正是这种机制将你们锚定在此处，直到某天清晨醒来时，你们会发现自己身处另一个似曾相识的维度。在你们能够实现意识过渡、不再执着于当前物理构造之前，是无法直接跃迁到那些遥不可及的异现实的。

JOHN: That’s what they call history.
约翰：这就是他们所谓的历史。

All this thing we call history is simply a separation of realities.
我们称之为历史的这一切，不过是现实的分裂。

DATRE: That’s right.
DATRE：没错。

JOHN: It’s a convenient way of identifying the reality transitions that you go through.
约翰：这是标记你所经历的现实转换的便捷方式。

DATRE: That’s the only way you can do it. It’s the different vibrations that set the separation between the realities.
道瑞：这是你们唯一能理解的方式。正是不同的振动频率区隔了各个现实。

JOHN: In any and all directions.
约翰：无论任何方向。

DATRE: Yes. That’s backwards, forward, up and down. Because the transitions are via the grid.
达崔：是的。包括前后左右上下。因为转换都是通过网格进行的。

JOHN: Let me restate that. All transitions between realities of any order of magnitude are by way of the grid.
约翰：让我重新表述一下。所有不同量级现实之间的转换，都是经由网格实现的。

DATRE: Right, right. You see, that sort of sets the tone. And we can expand on every section, but this is what Aona was trying to get at.
达崔：对，没错。你看，这算是定下了基调。我们可以详细展开每个部分，但这就是奥娜想要表达的核心。

She didn’t know how you wanted to do this. But what happens is, if we start out with something sort of basic like that. Then you can go into the explanation of how the grid is set up and all this kind of stuff.
她不知道你想怎么做。但实际情况是，如果我们从这样基础的内容开始。然后你就能深入解释网格是如何建立的，以及这类相关的内容。

Then, from that point, when you show the grid and show all the points and everything. At that point we can tell how different cultures come in by the grid points and settle in different areas and what they basically bring with a whole culture coming in and what their thought patterning is from where they were previously. And how they adjust their thought patterns to conform to this planetary existence.
接着，从那个节点开始，当你展示网格并标出所有坐标点后。我们就能通过网格坐标看出不同文化如何进入，如何在各个区域定居，以及他们带来的完整文化体系，还有他们从原属地带来的思维模式。以及他们如何调整思维模式来适应这个星球的存在方式。

JOHN: That’s what I mentioned once before. That’s where this thing called religion comes into the picture.
约翰：这正是我之前提到过的。这就是所谓宗教登场的时刻。

DATRE: That’s right.
DATRE：没错。

JOHN: In that they are here for a period of time and then one or more of that culture makes contact through some means that they call mysterious or whatever, with those that are still back where they came from. Then there’s a communication takes place like, “This is what you used to do and that’s how you used to do it”. Then they make a religion out of that trying to mimic what they used to do in their former environment.
约翰：具体表现为，他们在这里停留一段时间后，该文化中的一个或多个成员会通过某种他们称为神秘的方式，与留在原属地的同胞取得联系。随后就会产生类似这样的交流："这是你们过去常做的事，那是你们过去的做法"。然后他们据此创立宗教，试图模仿从前生活环境中的行为模式。

DATRE: But you see, you don’t have to even make contact.
DATRE：但你看，你甚至不需要建立联系。

JOHN: Yeah, I know that. We know that, for example, Islam is a classic example of that. There are a number of other religions that have come and gone that were like that.
JOHN：是的，我知道。我们清楚这一点，比如伊斯兰教就是个典型例子。还有许多其他宗教来了又去，也是如此。

DATRE: But you see, because this is nothing more than a dream and you have your package that you take with you constantly.
DATRE：但你要明白，因为这不过是一场梦，而你始终携带着自己的"包裹"。

So your knowingness coming in with a group of like minded individuals, shall we say. Say, the Greeks, when they came in. They came in with that fundamental background of their multiple gods.
所以你的觉知是与一群志同道合的人共同降临的，可以这么说。以古希腊人为例，当他们降临时，就带着他们多神信仰的根本背景。

Then in order to make sense of that in this reality that they came into, they made statues and put names on them. Because that is as close as they could come to what they understood.
为了在他们所处的现实中理解这一切，他们塑造了雕像并赋予其名号。因为这是他们最接近自己认知的方式。

JOHN: And it also shows clearly, that where they came from, had a reality that had oceans also – not all realities do. But because they had Neptune as one of the gods, they obviously had water where they came from.
约翰：这也清晰地表明，他们来自一个同样拥有海洋的实相——并非所有实相都如此。但由于他们将海王星奉为神明之一，显然他们的故乡存在水源。

DATRE: Or, it would not necessary have water as you have it, but there was something similar to your water.
道瑞：或者说，那里未必有你们认知中的水，但存在某种类似你们水的物质。

JOHN: Or an environment similar to what we call oceans.
约翰：或是存在类似我们称为海洋的环境。

DATRE: Yes, that’s right. The thing that happens is, cultures come in but it is more difficult now for them to leave as a group, because the groups, per se, do not stay together.
DATRE：没错。现在的情况是，各种文化虽然会进入，但作为群体要离开却变得更为困难，因为这些群体本身已不再紧密维系。

JOHN: The group patterning thinking has been shattered.
JOHN：群体模式化思维已被粉碎。

DATRE: Yes!
DATRE：正是！

JOHN: Even smaller groups have difficulty functioning as a compatible unit.
JOHN：即便是小群体也难以作为协调统一的整体运作。

DATRE: Just like a person that you met. She is from another very small group of people. Now she wants to bring those people over here to the United States. Well, already there’s been a split there.
DATRE：就像你遇到的一个人。她来自另一个非常小的群体。现在她想把那些人带到美国来。嗯，那里已经出现了分裂。

JOHN: Oh, yes, she was Basque.
JOHN：哦，是的，她是巴斯克人。

DATRE: Alright, a very small group of people. She came over here and she has already brought some of her family over. She wants bring more over here. So that immediately splits it. Their thinking changes by coming to the United States and adopting to it.
DATRE：没错，一个非常小的群体。她来到这里，已经带了一些家人过来。她想带更多人过来。这立刻造成了分裂。他们来到美国并适应这里后，思维方式就会改变。

JOHN: Cultural groups don’t stay the same in any reality.
JOHN：在任何现实中，文化群体都不会保持不变。

DATRE: No, they don’t.
DATRE：不，他们不会。

JOHN: So when we say culture, that culture could be a handful of people.
JOHN：所以我们所说的文化，可能只是一小群人形成的。

DATRE: That’s right, and that handful of people could leave. In a flood or whatever they decided would be good for them.
DATRE：没错，而且这一小群人可以选择离开。无论是通过洪水还是其他他们觉得对自己有利的方式。

JOHN: If they’re isolated enough they could leave without any dynamics involved.
JOHN：如果他们足够孤立，甚至可以在不引发任何动荡的情况下离开。

DATRE: That’s right they would just leave as a group. But you see, there’s still a body… there again, that would just have to be when things were so changed that it wouldn’t be noticed.
DATRE：没错，他们会集体离开。但你看，还会留下一具躯体...这又得等到环境剧变到无人察觉时才能实现。

When the population of your planet does that…
当你们星球的人口达到那种程度时...

JOHN: But if you can go altogether then there’s nobody left to wonder where you went.
JOHN：但如果能全体一同离开，就不会有人好奇你们去了哪里。

DATRE: Yes! But what happens is they’re always digging up bones and trying to figure out what happened.
DATRE：正是！不过现实情况是，人们总在挖掘骸骨并试图推测发生了什么。

JOHN: But those bones are other reality constructs and they have nothing to do with this reality.
约翰：但这些骸骨属于其他现实构造，与当前现实毫无关联。

DATRE: And not only that, the other thing that happens is that… say a culture that is beginning to make changes as a unit, can shift to another reality within this planetary environment and be lost.
道瑞：不仅如此，另一个现象是……比如某个文化群体开始集体转变时，他们可能转移到这个行星环境内的另一个现实层面，从此消失无踪。

So that does not necessarily mean that those that…
因此这并不必然意味着那些人……

JOHN: It doesn’t mean that they left the planet per se, it just means they made a shift.
约翰：这并非指他们离开了地球本身，仅表示他们完成了维度转换。

DATRE: That’s exactly right. And say the people on Easter Island, they may not have even left the planetary existence, they could be in another reality, far removed from the reality that you’re in now.
DATRE：完全正确。就拿复活节岛上的人来说，他们可能根本没有离开行星存在，而是进入了另一个现实层面，与你们当前所处的现实截然不同。

The reality that you’re in now, at the present time, is not the reality that the majority of the people in this, what you call the United States. The United States is in many different realities in different formats.
你们当下所处的现实，与大多数人口中所谓"美国"的居民所体验的现实并不相同。这个"美国"正以多种形态存在于众多平行现实中。

But the thing is, because of setting up this opposites in environment and all of these other things that you have on your planet, the environment can be uniquely different in another reality that you could experience right here.
关键在于，由于你们星球上设置了这些环境对立面以及其他种种因素，在另一个现实中——甚至就在此地——你们可能体验到全然不同的环境特质。

So how do you know…
那么你如何确定...

JOHN: We have some of that that’s blatantly obvious, like the Mennonites and the Quakers and such. You go into their community, there is just a whole other reality.
约翰：我们有些例子简直显而易见，比如门诺派和贵格会这些群体。走进他们的社区，就仿佛置身于一个完全不同的现实世界。

DATRE: Yes, yes. But they’ve maintained it and so few have.
达崔：没错，没错。但他们维系住了这种现实，能做到这点的群体实在太少了。

JOHN: Right. That’s what I’m saying. That’s an example of on the planet, totally different realities. You go to San Francisco and you go to China town, that’s a whole other reality in San Francisco, New York the same thing.
约翰：对，这正是我想说的。这就是地球上完全不同的现实存在的例证。你去旧金山，走进唐人街，那就是旧金山里的另一个现实世界，纽约也是如此。

DATRE: Yes. That’s what you would call a horizontal shifting. You can shift much easier in a horizontal reality, from one place to the other, than you can shift from the up and down – a vertical shift in either direction.
达崔：是的。这就是你所说的横向切换。在横向现实中，从一个地方切换到另一个地方，远比上下切换——即任何方向的纵向切换——要容易得多。

Because, there are those who wish to experience, say that they are at this particular reality and they find something intriguing in another reality, and this is what we’re finding very much right now, is those that are so much interested in the music, the culture the dress and everything else of that which you call the Renaissance.
因为，有些人渴望体验，声称自己身处这个特定的现实，却在另一个现实中发现了吸引他们的东西，这正是我们现在频繁遇到的情况——那些对音乐、文化、服饰以及你们称之为文艺复兴时期的一切事物都抱有浓厚兴趣的人。

Now, those people that “die here” on this planet, in this particular reality that you’re familiar with, go into the dead zone, they could very easily, because remember, it has nothing to do with your body or has nothing to do with your brain patterning, it has to do with your intellect.
如今，那些在你们熟悉的这个特定现实中"死去"的人会进入死亡地带，他们可以非常轻松地（因为请记住，这与你们的身体无关，与你们的大脑模式无关）实现这种跨越，关键在于你们的灵识。

You can take that intellect, because you are so extremely drawn to the Renaissance period, take that intellect and put that into a Renaissance period for another experiential pattern.
你们可以带着这份灵识——既然你们如此痴迷文艺复兴时期——将这份灵识投入到另一个文艺复兴时期，去体验全新的模式。

JOHN: Now, I have a question about that one.
约翰：关于这一点，我有个疑问。

DATRE: Alright, that’s fine.
DATRE：好的，没问题。

JOHN: Intellect is a child of the ego. The ego is a child…is part of the body. If the ego didn’t segment events into slices of events, then there would be no intellect. Because that’s what the intellect uses to build its own structure.
JOHN：智力是自我的产物。自我是身体的一部分。如果自我没有将事件分割成片段，就不会有智力存在。因为智力正是利用这些片段来构建自身的结构。

DATRE: Alright, then that isn’t the word. We have said you have a soul.
DATRE：好吧，那这个词不准确。我们说过你们拥有灵魂。

JOHN: We don’t want to get into that.
JOHN：我们不想深入讨论这个。

DATRE: No! But what can we use instead of that? Because that’s what you take with you all the time. What terminology can we use, because that is a composite of you.
DATRE：不！但我们能用什么来替代它呢？因为那是你始终携带着的东西。我们该用什么术语呢，因为那是你的复合体。

JOHN: Sure, but why do we have to give it a term? Why isn’t it “you”, the core you?
JOHN：当然，但为什么非要给它一个名称？为什么不能就是"你"，核心的你？

DATRE: You can do that.
DATRE：你可以这么做。

JOHN: The experiencing you.
JOHN：那个正在体验的你。

DATRE: The experiencing you, that’s right.
DATRE：正在体验的你，没错。

JOHN: Because that’s all that… you’re an accumulated result of all of your experiences at any given point.
JOHN：因为那就是全部...在任何特定时刻，你都是所有经历累积的结果。

DATRE: Right, right. So that should be brought in there, so then when we say that the shift can be made that way.
DATRE：对，对。所以这一点应该被纳入考量，这样当我们说转变可以那样发生时。

JOHN: See, the intellect would have a… the intellect is a camouflage component. It recognizes and organizes and tries to make sense out of camouflage information.
JOHN：看，智力会有一个...智力是伪装组件。它识别并组织，试图从伪装信息中找出意义。

DATRE: Alright, fine. Okay, that’s good. Well, you see that’s why its needed to put things into perspective. Because, I know, but there again knowing is one thing, putting it into words...
DATRE：好吧，很好。你看，这就是为什么需要把事情放在正确视角来看待。因为，我明白，但明白是一回事，用语言表达出来又是另一回事......

JOHN: I understand.
JOHN：我理解。

DATRE: This can be a fantastic book (The 5^th Dimension – Doorways to the Universe) because it will give people the knowing that they need to release them. But, we will run into different areas that we will have to stumble through.
DATRE：这本书（《第五维度——通往宇宙的门户》）可能会非常精彩，因为它能给予人们所需的认知来释放自我。不过我们会遇到各种需要摸索前行的陌生领域。

JOHN: Yeah, like just exactly how do you… how is the grid used this way? That’s one of the obvious questions.
JOHN：是啊，比如具体要如何...网格是这样运作的吗？这是最显而易见的问题之一。

DATRE: Yes, uh huh. That the only way you can get into another…
DATRE：是的，嗯哼。那是唯一能进入另一个...的方式

JOHN: That’s the way you do it irrespective of what you’re aware of.
JOHN：无论你意识到与否，这就是实现它的方法

DATRE: That’s right, that’s right. It is just like your teleporter’s.
DATRE：没错，完全正确。就像你们的传送装置一样

JOHN: I was just going to say, levitation and teleportation are two characteristics of the grid again.
JOHN：我正想说，悬浮和传送又是网格的两个特性

DATRE: There you go, that’s right.
DATRE：就是这样，没错。

JOHN: They are undeveloped characteristics, but, they are none the less characteristics of the grid.
JOHN：这些都是未开发的特性，但它们依然是网格的特性。

DATRE: Uh huh, very definitely.
DATRE：嗯哼，非常确定。

JOHN: Levitation, all levitation is, is sitting on another level of grid patterning. And that grid patterning level is separated from what you call the planets surface. So you call it levitation.
JOHN：悬浮，所有的悬浮现象，都是坐在另一个层级的网格模式上。那个网格模式层级与你所谓的行星表面是分离的。所以你们称之为悬浮。

DATRE: Yes, but you see, you have no idea how fine a mesh the grid has.
DATRE：是的，但你要明白，你根本无法想象网格的网眼有多么精细。

JOHN: Yes, I know that. Well, we know that.
JOHN：是的，我明白。嗯，我们都知道这点。

DATRE: But that has to be explained to, that we are just showing the biggest…
DATRE：但必须说明的是，我们只是展示了最宏观的...

JOHN: Yes, we’re just showing the large scale patterning.
JOHN：对，我们仅仅呈现了大尺度的结构模式。

DATRE: That’s right so that they get a perspective of what its about and how it works.
DATRE：没错，这样他们就能理解其中的概念和运作方式。

JOHN: That’s also, by the way, that the cells in your body, we say they’re regenerating, they use the grid structure to shift to another reality and others replace them. That’s what has been going on, there’s no dying and reliving. That’s just movement, its just a constant movement using the grid as the means of transport.
JOHN：顺便说一句，这也是你体内细胞的情况。我们说它们在再生，其实是通过网格结构转换到另一个现实，由其他细胞取代它们。这一直在发生，不存在死亡与重生。这只是运动，是持续不断的运动，利用网格作为传输手段。

DATRE: Uh huh, yup. That’s another big point. See, as we get going, we can develop this and really, what you want to do in this book, you want to knock their socks off a little bit.
DATRE：嗯哼，是的。这是另一个重点。看，随着我们深入，我们可以发展这一点。实际上，你在这本书里真正想做的，是要给他们带来一点震撼。

JOHN: That’s why I put the title the way that I did – The 5^th Dimension. I don’t have a clue why Seth used that term.
JOHN：这就是为什么我用了这个标题——《5 ^th 维度》。我完全不明白为什么赛斯要用这个术语。

DATRE: I don’t either, that just was at that time.
DATRE：我也不清楚，那只是当时的情况。

JOHN: It was at that time and he was very insistent on that term throughout the book, throughout the material I’m reading anyway. Even though he changes other things in the process.
JOHN：那是当时的说法，而且他在整本书里——至少在我阅读的资料中——都坚持使用这个术语。尽管在这个过程中他改变了其他内容。

DATRE: But you see, he was still using planetary… that’s why he wanted that book written because he still had enough awareness of planetary existence and he could come and go. He didn’t need anyone to interpret for him.
DATRE：但你看，他当时仍在运用行星层面的...这正是他想写那本书的原因，因为他仍保有足够的行星存在意识，可以自由来去。他不需要任何人替他转译。

Now, we have to have Aona’s body. We need to have her thought patterns to work with and we have to have you, because we can’t… the spread is too far.
现在，我们必须借助 Aona 的身体。我们需要她的思维模式来运作，也需要你的协助，因为我们无法...能量场覆盖范围太广了。

JOHN: Yes, I understand that. Yeah, that can be a very interesting book and then the… see that’s all the body of the book, then sort of the later part of the book will be the individual twelve chapters that talk about individual grid patterns as a group, in other words, the twelve skins, with examples of what is going on in each of these twelve skins.
约翰：是的，我明白。那确实会是一本非常有趣的书，你看...这些构成了全书的主体部分，而后半部分则会分为独立的十二章，分别讨论十二种网格模式——也就是十二种能量表皮，并通过实例展示每种表皮中发生的现象。

Like with the whales and their migrations. The animal migrations. And the people migrations or whatever dynamics that go on. So that’s information that shows the patterning that has taken place as opposed to what “will” take place.
比如鲸鱼的迁徙。动物的迁徙。还有人类的迁徙或任何动态变化。这些信息呈现的是已经发生的模式，而非"将要"发生的模式。

DATRE: Then because of the knowing you, I think that world be a good term to do that. To keep the knowing you that’s the one that’s experiencing physicality.
DATRE：正因为存在"认知的你"，我认为用这个概念很合适。保留"认知的你"，那正是体验物质实相的主体。

Because you “know” both sides. The “knowing you” is a composite of the expressing you and the or the experiencing you and the “choosing you”, the one that is choosing the possibilities and probabilities.
因为你同时"知晓"两面。"认知的你"是表达的你、体验的你与"选择的你"的复合体——那个不断在可能性与或然性中做出选择的存在。

JOHN: That’s what Seth called the “Whole Self”.
约翰：这就是赛斯所说的"全我"。

DATRE: The Whole Self is a composite of the two.
DATRE：全我是两者的复合体。

JOHN: The Whole Self is that expression that originates reincarnational Selves. Then the reincarnational selves also have that Whole you characteristic.
约翰：全我是那个产生转世自我的本源表达。而转世自我也同样具备那个完整的你之特质。

DATRE: Yes, but I think for this particular book, depending upon how it goes together…
DATRE：是的，不过我认为就这本特定的书而言，取决于它如何编排...

JOHN: I’m just saying the Whole you or the experiencing you, I’m trying to relate it so that there’s some consistency.
约翰：我只是在说整体的你或体验中的你，我试图将它们联系起来，以保持某种一致性。

DATRE: Yes, but what we need is the experiencing you…
道瑞：是的，但我们需要的是体验中的你……

JOHN: We’ve already said the Dreamer You.
约翰：我们已经提到过"做梦的你"。

DATRE: Well, we can call it the Dreamer You or the two faces.
道瑞：好吧，我们可以称之为"做梦的你"或双面性。

JOHN: Yes, you see that’s it, the two faces, the face that’s looking at the camouflage is the reincarnational you experiencing. Then the face looking on the inside is the whole self that is that which generates the reincarnational self.
约翰：是的，你看就是这样，那两张面孔——注视着伪装表象的面孔是正在体验转世的你；而向内凝视的面孔则是完整的本我，正是这个本我孕育出了转世的自我。

The aspect thing is consistent, that’s how everything is done. What we call them at this level here, is aspects. But that’s how everything is developed.
这种面向的划分具有一致性，万物的运作皆基于此。在我们所处的这个层面，我们称之为"面向"。但万物的演化皆遵循此理。

DATRE: Yes, I know that John.
DATRE：是的，约翰，我明白这点。

JOHN: I know you do, I’m not trying to tell you anything.
约翰：我知道你明白，我并非试图向你阐述什么。

DATRE: You see, you’ve got it figured out in your head. But what we’re going to have to do is cut down on our nuts and bolts. Then make it so that when we get into reincarnational self’s then we’ve got something where we can put the two together as a composite.
DATRE：你看，你已经在脑海中理清了思路。但我们需要做的是简化那些细枝末节。然后构建一个框架，当我们进入转世自我的层面时，就能将两者融合为一个复合体。

You see, when you’re experiencing from this vantage point, we’ve got to keep this in a very small one body situation.
要知道，当你从这个视角体验时，我们必须将其局限在单一身体的微小情境中。

JOHN: Yeah, but I think we can introduce a concept in there.
JOHN：是的，但我觉得可以引入一个概念。

DATRE: We can but…
DATRE：可以倒是可以...

JOHN: And use it for that explanation that you’re talking about right here. Someone referred to the natural body that everybody has and is the only thing that is visible. If an entity comes into this planet, the only thing that they could see would be what is called the tissue capsule.
约翰：就用这个来解释你刚才提到的概念。有人提到每个人都拥有的自然身体，这是唯一可见的部分。如果一个存在体来到这个星球，他们唯一能看到的将是被称作"组织囊"的东西。

That is what you call your dream body. That is what you have in the dead zone. That is your “You” body and that expression, the human body form, goes up way away in the chain or something like that.
那就是你们所说的梦境体。那是你们在死亡地带拥有的身体。那是你们的"本我"体，而那种表现形式——人类身体形态，在某种链条或类似结构中延伸得很远。

DATRE: We’ll have to use something like that.
DATRE：我们得采用类似的说法。

JOHN: Then identify it as body, since it’s a body, body, body kind of thing. I think it would behoove us to explain that its only “one” body under different environmental conditions. This body, the physical condition is that same body, but it carries a coating or camouflage or whatever terms you want to use.
约翰：那就把它统称为身体，毕竟它本质上就是身体的不同形态。我认为有必要说明这只是在不同环境条件下的"同一具"身体。这个物质形态的身体始终是同一个，只是披着不同的外衣或伪装——随你怎么称呼都行。

But, when that body lays down you shed the camouflage. When you go to sleep at night you shed that part of you and you function from that same basic body. So it isn’t that… we call it the dream body, which is a fine term, we can use that terminology. But that’s the constant body that you use all the time.
然而，当那具躯体躺下时，你便褪去了伪装。当夜晚入眠时，你卸下那部分自我，仍以相同的基础躯体运作。所以并非...我们称之为梦体，这个术语很贴切，可以采用这种说法。但那才是你始终使用的恒常之躯。

DATRE: We can explain that the dream body is your constant containment.
DATRE：我们可以解释，梦体就是你永恒的容器。

JOHN: Right. That is your constant. That’s what you use in the dead zone, that’s what you use in the live zone when you cover it over. That’s what you use everywhere.
约翰：没错。那就是你的恒常状态。无论身处死亡地带时使用它，还是覆盖于生命地带时使用它，那都是你在任何地方运用的载体。

That’s why you’re only dreaming because you’re always in your dream body.
正因如此，你只是在经历梦境——因为你始终存在于自己的梦体之中。

DATRE: Yes. And not only that, that is what you take with you when you travel, in what you call astral travel, or go to another reality whether that other reality is another planet or whatever.
DATRE：是的。不仅如此，当你进行所谓的星体旅行或前往另一个现实时——无论那个现实是另一颗星球还是其他什么——你都会带着它同行。

JOHN: That’s what you go in, that’s your constant.
JOHN：那就是你的载体，你的永恒存在。

DATRE: That is your constant. See, that will take away a lot of the fear of leaving the body.
DATRE：那就是你的永恒本质。明白吗？这会大大消除你对脱离肉体的恐惧。

JOHN: Yup, you never can, its impossible. Since we have already introduced the dream body question, the dreamer you, we can use that analogy and it works very well.
JOHN：没错，你永远无法真正脱离，那是不可能的。既然我们已经提到了梦体这个概念，即"做梦的你"，这个类比非常贴切且能很好地说明问题。

DATRE: Yup, yes.
DATRE: 对，是的。

JOHN: We’ve got consistency going there.
JOHN: 我们在这方面保持了一致性。

DATRE: Well, I think we’ve covered quite a bit today. That’s good, because each one of these when we get into it we can develop it. Now we can.. you will be surprised sometime to put this on a piece of paper, then we can take the pieces and work from them.
DATRE: 嗯，我想今天我们讨论了不少内容。这很好，因为每次深入探讨时我们都能加以拓展。现在我们可以...你会惊讶于把这些内容落实到纸面上，然后我们就能拆分这些部分并展开工作。

This is how it works when we start dialoging back and forth, different things will come up, then we can work with that.
这就是我们开始来回对话时的运作方式，会不断涌现新的内容，然后我们就能据此展开工作。

I don’t care for the tissue body.
我不在乎肉体躯壳。

JOHN: I understand that. I was just using that for a reference, I really didn’t want to use that terminology, but I was trying to say something that replaces that but says the same thing. I think the dream body is excellent for that.
约翰：我理解。刚才只是用那个词做个参照，其实我并不想用那个术语，只是想找个替代说法表达相同的意思。我觉得"梦体"这个概念就非常贴切。

DATRE: Yes. But, you see, what they think of is, this is called tissue. But that’s fine, it worked at the time. That is what is used with everything that is on this planet.
DATRE：是的。但你看，人们习惯称之为肉体组织。不过这没关系，在当时这个词确实适用。地球上现存的一切生命形态都是以此命名的。

JOHN: The dream body is seen often by animals and some psychics, that’s the thing they call the
约翰：动物和部分通灵者经常能看见梦体，这就是他们所谓的

“spirit”.
“灵体”。

DATRE: That’s the spirit.
DATRE：就是这种灵体。

JOHN: Now we can take that one out of the picture, because there is no such thing as spirituality.
JOHN：现在我们可以把这个概念排除在外了，因为根本不存在所谓的灵性。

DATRE: Because some people can see this body slightly, they watch the “spirit” leave the body and that’s what it is. Its your dream body leaving. And everybody on all planets have the same thing.
DATRE：因为有些人能隐约看见这个躯体，他们观察到“灵体”离开肉身的过程，事实就是如此。那是你的梦境躯体在脱离。所有星球上的生命体都遵循同样的机制。

JOHN: Its irrelevant to the planet or environment, that is common.
约翰：这与星球或环境无关，这是普遍现象。

DATRE: Its a universal principle. That’s good, because that will take care of that business of the spirit. And, not only that, depending upon where they are in their thinking, we have not destroyed their spirit or their god.
达崔：这是宇宙法则。这样很好，因为那将解决关于灵性的问题。不仅如此，根据他们思维所处的阶段，我们既没有摧毁他们的灵性，也没有否定他们的神明。

JOHN: No we just gave it a better name.
约翰：我们只是赋予它更恰当的名称。

DATRE: Well, you see that can be accepted. No problem at all. See, that stays in alignment with the basic thinking in this particular reality.
达崔：你看，这样就能被接受。完全没问题。明白吗？这完全符合当前这个特定现实的基础认知框架。

So I will leave the body right now and we can continue at another time.
我现在就要离开身体了，我们可以改天再继续。

We are Datre
我们是道瑞

POSSIBILITIES AND PROBABILITIES
可能性与概率

JOHN: (DEC. 2004) You mean that our possibilities and probabilities are not a linear anything, you don’t pick a possibility and go down that line?
约翰：（2004 年 12 月）你是说我们的可能性和概率不是线性的？我们不是选择一个可能性然后沿着那条线走下去？

DATRE: That’s right.
DATRE：没错。

JOHN: What we do is we pick and choose and choose many, many lines then make your own lines.
约翰：实际上我们是不断挑选多条路径，然后创造属于自己的路线。

DATRE: You pick many different possibilities and probabilities and in acting them out in physicality, it looks like you’re following a line.
DATRE：你们选择了许多不同的可能性和概率，并在物质层面将其演绎出来，看起来就像是在沿着一条直线前进。

JOHN: But, actually, if you were to see it, you’re zigzagging all over the place.
JOHN：但实际上，如果你能看到的话，其实是在到处曲折前行。

DATRE: Your physical direction is usually a straight line, but your picking of your possibilities and probabilities is all over the map.
DATRE：你们的物质方向通常是直线，但你们对可能性和概率的选择却遍布整个地图。

So, they’ll say, how come this person has been doing this all this time and the next thing we know he’s decided to go back to school and be a lawyer? And he’s never had any education at all. How can he get through law school so fast?
所以他们会说，为什么这个人一直做着这件事，突然就决定重返校园去当律师？而他之前从未接受过任何相关教育。他怎么能这么快就完成法学院学业？

JOHN: Jumped on another possibility, probability time line.
约翰：跃入了另一条可能性的时间线。

DATRE: And he’s enjoying it to the fullest.
达崔：而他正尽情享受着这一切。

JOHN: He only did it when it felt like for him that it was something he wanted to do rather than something he was pressured to do.
约翰：只有当他自己觉得这是想做的事，而非被迫去做时，他才会行动。

DATRE: Yes, yes.
达崔：是的，没错。

JOHN: You see, just because you come in here with all manner of intent and desires, you orchestrate that as you develop.
约翰：你看，正因为你带着各种意图和欲望来到这里，你会在成长过程中精心策划这一切。

DATRE: That’s why there are those who come in that have the desire and intent to do this, that and the next thing. Then the next thing you know they are so lost in this morass of Mass Consciousness that they keep picking the same possibilities and probabilities because there’s a comfort factor and their fear blocks any exploration in any areas.
达崔：这就是为什么有些人带着想要做这个、那个和下件事的欲望和意图而来。然后不知不觉间，他们就深陷大众意识的泥沼中，不断选择相同的可能性和概率，因为那里有舒适感，而恐惧阻碍了他们在任何领域的探索。

JOHN: They also pick-up a multitude of belief systems from others, that they say, oh, that sounds reasonable, I’ll take that belief.
约翰：他们还会从他人那里吸收大量信仰体系，然后说，哦，这听起来很合理，我就接受那个信仰吧。

DATRE: You all do.
达崔：你们都是如此。

JOHN: But we don’t build it from our selves, we take it from others. That’s what’s going on with parents and children.
约翰：但我们并非从自身构建它，而是从他人那里获取。这正是父母与子女之间发生的情形。

DATRE: But, that’s the thing we want to say, you don’t build it except what you take from others. But, do you want to take from those you see in physicality? Do you want to take from Mass Consciousness that surrounds you? Or do you want to be selective and pick your own possibilities and probabilities which are able to be developed?
道瑞：但我们要说的是，你只能从他人那里获取而非自行构建。然而，你想从物质层面所见之人那里获取吗？你想从环绕着你的集体意识中获取吗？抑或你更愿意有所选择，挑选那些能够被发展的、专属于你的可能性与或然性？

In other words, the Mass Consciousness ones you pick, they have already been done. If you pick a possibility or probability it is unique, because it is only a suggestion, and its for you to develop it the way you want to develop it.
换言之，你所选取的集体意识产物，都已被完成。若你选择某个可能性或或然性，它便是独特的——因为它仅是个建议，而如何发展它完全取决于你。

So we can expand on all of these things. Your time of recycling is over.
因此我们可以拓展所有这些概念。你们循环往复的时代已经终结。

Then the sooner that we can get a small group of people to begin to stop the recycling process and develop into choosing of possibilities and probabilities and seeing what they can do.
那么我们越早让一小群人开始停止循环过程，转而发展出选择可能性和概率的能力，并探索他们能做到什么。

Then you can even use the example of e-mail that you got from a couple who had been struggling and something in the Datre material clicked and their lives have been completely changed and they’re playing in physicality.
你甚至可以用那对夫妇的电子邮件为例，他们曾苦苦挣扎，直到道瑞资料中的某个点突然让他们豁然开朗，生活彻底改变，现在他们正在物质层中尽情体验。

But, whatever clicks for you, but that does not mean, oh, it clicked, but then it has to be put into action.
但无论什么让你顿悟，这并不意味着"啊，我顿悟了"就完事了，还必须付诸行动。

DATRE: There are certain things that we need to work with until we completely take over. But that silver and gold they’re embracing and you on this planet will look at it as male/female, but Aona would not have picked it up if they had both been silver or both been gold.
DATRE：在我们完全接管之前，有些事项需要我们协作处理。但那些被他们拥抱的金银之物，你们星球上的人会将其视为男/女二元性，而如果两者都是银或都是金的话，Aona 就不会选择它们了。

That is a combination of two different systems of reality. The compatibility of two systems, two different systems of physicality, the more you get away from earth the more the compatibility.
这是两种不同现实体系的结合。两个物理性体系之间的兼容性，越是远离地球，这种兼容性就越强。

We have a group of planets in our solar system and everyone knows what’s going on, on all of those planets even if they’re not taking part in it.
我们的太阳系中有一群行星，每个人都知道这些行星上发生的一切，即使他们并未参与其中。

JOHN: Its sort of a program running in the background. Oh, that’s interesting, and now you’re tuned in. Otherwise its just background.
约翰：这有点像在后台运行的程序。哦，这很有趣，现在你接入频道了。否则它就只是背景音。

DATRE: That’s right. Maybe I can use this to develop that into something. You see we don’t have a system of possibilities and probabilities.
DATRE：没错。也许我可以利用这个来发展出某些东西。你看，我们并没有可能性与概率性的体系。

JOHN: There?
约翰：那里？

DATRE: No, its not necessary. Because everything is there and everybody uses it and everybody knows about its just normal.
达崔：不，没必要。因为一切都在那里，每个人都在使用它，每个人都知道它，这很正常。

JOHN: One of the things that we’ve got to really got to point out is the huge differences between “here” and everyplace else.
约翰：我们必须明确指出的一点是，"这里"和其他任何地方之间的巨大差异。

DATRE: That’s right, and there’s no other way of doing it except to come through a physical construct.
达崔：没错，除了通过物理构造体进入，没有其他方法能做到这一点。

JOHN: I know that, but what I’m saying is all the teachings, all the dialogue, all the channeling of all kinds are so limited.
约翰：我知道，但我想说的是所有的教导、所有的对话、各种形式的通灵都太有限了。

By the way, that brought up a point that Aona and I were discussing last night. Many of the names that are referred to in your culture sound so earth-like. So we were thinking that maybe some of the earth cultures are an offshoot of some sort from your culture.
顺便说，这让我想起昨晚和奥娜讨论的一个观点。你们文化中提到的许多名字听起来都特别有地球风格。所以我们猜测也许某些地球文化是你们文化的分支。

DATRE: Well, there again, that is working from a different construct. In other words, when they spelled out their names, what happened is they were given different vibrations and those vibrations were translated as letters of your alphabet.
达崔：嗯，这又涉及到不同的构建体系了。换句话说，当他们拼写名字时，实际上是被赋予了不同的振动频率，而这些振动被转译成了你们字母表中的文字。

JOHN: The same thing we did with the name Datre.
约翰：就像我们处理"达崔"这个名字的方式一样。

DATRE: Alright that translation would naturally be what that person was connected with in physicality.
DATRE：好的，这种翻译自然会反映出那个人在物质层面所连接的内容。

JOHN: Okay, that makes sense.
JOHN：明白了，这很合理。

DATRE: That’s what Aona was disturbed with, its not that she isn’t comfortable with all of us in our culture, but its not the compatibility that she would have with a group from some other planets.
DATRE：这就是让 Aona 感到困扰的地方，并非她对我们在文化上相处不自在，而是她与其他星球群体之间缺乏那种契合度。

Now, do not tie in, in any way to our system on an individual basis.
注意，切勿以任何个人形式与我们体系产生关联。

JOHN: We’re not planning to, that’s why we only use the group name, Datre.
约翰：我们并不打算这样做，这就是为什么我们只使用团体名称"道瑞"。

DATRE: There will be a great deal of fluidity with the of information. Everyone here knows everything that’s going on, on other planets, so we can draw from all of those.
道瑞：信息将具有极大的流动性。这里的每个人都知晓其他星球上发生的一切，因此我们可以汲取所有那些信息。

Plus, the fact that you have all of those in Datre who will also be using the body. So there is going to be another adjustment to the body, in fact it’s coming now gradually. But we have to find out what Aona, as Aona, is expressing through the physical construct. That is important.
此外，事实上你们在道瑞中的所有成员都将使用这个身体。所以身体还需要另一次调整，实际上这种调整现在正逐渐进行。但我们必须弄清楚奥娜，作为奥娜本人，正通过这个物质构造表达什么。这很重要。

But we find that because you are more proficient at the manipulation than we were through her, because we’re still tentative as to how much energy this physical construct. To Aona its no problem, but to the physical construct it’s a problem.
但我们发现，由于你们比她更擅长操控这个身体，因为我们仍在试探这个物质构造能承受多少能量。对奥娜来说这不是问题，但对这个物质构造来说是个问题。

Its not a problem, we shouldn’t say that. But its something to be respected. We don’t play any tricks with Aona, because that’s not necessary – because her knowingness is different than ours.
这不是问题，我们不该那么说。但这是值得尊重的。我们不会对奥娜耍任何花招，因为那没有必要——因为她的认知方式与我们不同。

But, it’s a knowingness that is compatible with whatever system she goes to or works with, the same as yours.
但这种认知方式能与她接触或合作的任何体系兼容，就像你们的一样。

JOHN: What about this question of dimensions?
约翰：关于维度的问题呢？

DATRE: That’s an old term that was used by some people.
道瑞：那是某些人使用过的旧术语。

JOHN: Some of those statements like “I’m in contact with the 13^th dimension”. Huh?
约翰：有些说法比如"我与第 13 维度保持联系"，嗯？

DATRE: As people ask questions, those things can be corrected. It is like, “Well what about God?”. God only exists on your planetary system. But the more they become aware of other planetary systems and how they actually operate, the more they will be drawn away from the God concept.
DATRE：当人们提出疑问时，这些概念就能被修正。就像有人问"那么上帝呢？"上帝只存在于你们的行星系统中。但当人们越了解其他行星系统的实际运作方式，就越会脱离上帝这个概念。

Simply because they’ll have something else to be interested in.
仅仅因为他们会找到其他更感兴趣的事物。

JOHN: That’s what they’re looking for. They’re looking for something to replace God.
约翰：这正是他们所追寻的。他们想找个东西来替代上帝。

DATRE: Yes.
DATRE：是的。

JOHN: That’s the unfortunate thing about many of the teachings because they keep pounding on the God thing. I think that was one of the mistakes that Seth made. By not eliminating the God by trying to re-describe it. I don’t care how you say it, it’s the same thing.
约翰：这正是许多教义令人遗憾之处，因为它们不断强调"神"这个概念。我认为这是赛斯犯的错误之一——试图重新描述而非彻底摒弃"神"的概念。无论你用何种说法，本质并无不同。

DATRE: That doesn’t change anything. But you see, you’ve got them to understand something different. You’ve got to get them to allow them to project themselves into different ways of doing something different.
达崔：这改变不了什么。但你看，你需要让他们理解不同的东西。你得引导他们允许自己以不同的方式投射自我，尝试全新的可能性。

JOHN: We really need to get across the idea that there really isn’t a need for such a thing in the first place. That’s the whole game.
约翰：我们真正需要传达的理念是：从一开始就不需要这样的概念存在。这才是整个游戏的关键。

Since you’re everything, why do you need somebody else to give you the rules?
既然你即是一切，为何还需要别人来制定规则？

DATRE: No, we’re going to approach it differently. If you are from, if you feel that you are from another planetary system, we’re very certain that until you arrived in this pattern of physicality you knew nothing about a God.
DATRE：不，我们要换个角度来探讨。如果你来自——如果你感觉自己来自另一个行星系统，我们可以非常确定，在你进入这个物质形态的模式之前，你对"上帝"这个概念一无所知。

JOHN: Yes, good point. That’s what started pushing your buttons to give you that longing. The artificiality is being pushed strongly on you and its making you less and less comfortable.
JOHN：没错，说得好。正是这种认知差异开始触动你的内心，引发那种渴望。人为强加的信仰观念正猛烈冲击着你，让你感到越来越不自在。

DATRE: We need to take another tack like Aona’s gentleness and her perceptions, as she allows us to express using her impressions of presentations. Because she sees the heavy handed presentations which everyone of your channels have had.
DATRE：我们需要采用像 Aona 那样的温和方式和她独特的感知视角，因为她允许我们通过她对事物呈现方式的印象来进行表达。因为她看透了所有通灵者都曾经历过的那些生硬传达方式。

Because, they have all in their own way been extremely stubborn.
因为，这些通灵者都以各自的方式表现得极其固执。

J.Z. came from nothing, she became wealthy through her marriage and she became lordly in her manner.
J.Z.出身贫寒，通过婚姻获得财富后，举止变得高傲起来。

The one that Seth used was very stubborn. But she was a psychic in her own right. She taught classes and everything.
赛斯使用的那位通灵者非常固执。但她本身确实具备通灵能力，还开班授课什么的。

And that all projected into “how” things were presented.
这一切都投射到事物"如何"被呈现的方式上。

So you see, everyone of them that you can mention, has had something or maintaining something. Because if you’re going to channel Abraham, if you’re going to channel Lazarus…
你看，你能提到的每个人，要么拥有某种特质，要么在维系某种状态。因为如果你想通灵亚伯拉罕，如果你想通灵拉撒路...

JOHN: That’s my standard response when people say, “Well, gee I just ran across this new channel who channels Abraham”. I say, think about it, look at the name, where do you think that’s from? But they just go bonkers – it’s a channel.
约翰：当人们说"哎呀，我刚发现这个能通灵亚伯拉罕的新频道"时，这就是我的标准回应。我说，仔细想想，看看这个名字，你觉得它来自哪里？但他们完全疯了——那不过是个通灵频道而已。

DATRE: But, now John, throw away your chains and allow your self to experience your own ability.
达崔：但是，约翰，现在请挣脱你的枷锁，让自己去体验你本具的能力。

JOHN: I’m in the process of doing that.
约翰：我正在这个过程中。

JOHN: So, in order to have this experience today, from this vantage point, you create a “past” experience which will allow you to have that information and understanding to use in the present moment.
约翰：因此，为了从当下这个视角获得今日的体验，你需要创造一个"过去"的经历，这将使你获得能在当下运用的信息与理解。

So you work the past from the so-called future – its not a linear process.
所以你从所谓的未来作用于过去——这不是一个线性过程。

DATRE: Correct. We thank you. We are Datre
DATRE：正确。我们感谢你。我们是 Datre

TIME
时间

DATRE: (DEC. 2004) Now, what we were talking about is the fact of no time. When is no time? When is “no time” registered in your physicality?
DATRE：（2004 年 12 月）现在，我们谈论的是"无时间"这个事实。何时是无时间？"无时间"何时会在你的物质身体中被记录？

In other words, you can be in a store and you will say something and it will be something that you’ve tried to make a connection, of what it is telling you, because it seems interesting . So what you do at that time is you pop out of body to explore. That takes… no time at all to explore things and get back into the physical construct.
换句话说，当你在商店里时，可能会突然说出一些试图建立关联的话——因为那些从意识深处浮现的信息显得很有趣。这时你会短暂脱离身体去探索，这个过程其实根本不需要时间，瞬间就能完成探索并回归物质躯体。

You see you relate everything to time.
你看，你总习惯用时间衡量一切。

Now, that can probably be a matter of seconds. In the mean time someone has said something to you and they’ll say, “what’s the matter with you? Pay attention. Didn’t you hear what I told you? Didn’t you hear what I said?”.
这种出神状态可能只持续几秒钟。但就在这片刻间，可能已经有人对你说："你怎么了？专心点。没听见我刚才说的话吗？"

You’ll say no!
你会回答：没有！

Well, I said such and such.
嗯，我是这么说的。

Well, what’s happened is, you were out of body, you were getting information, for the physical construct to work out or work on or just exploring. And now you’re back in. But you see, no physical time was registered.
事情是这样的：你当时处于出体状态，正在获取信息，可能是为了让物质构造运作或调整，也可能只是单纯在探索。现在你回来了。但你看，物质世界的时间并没有被记录。

So the amount of time that you were out of body, sometimes, as we have said, you’re in and out many time’s a day. That’s what we refer to as “blink-on” and “blink-off”. Its not a rhythmic thing like a clock. A clock has ticks that are rhythmic.
所以你在出体状态的时间长度——就像我们说过的那样——有时候你一天会进出很多次。这就是我们所说的"瞬间关闭"和"瞬间开启"。它不像时钟那样有规律。时钟的滴答声是有节奏的。

Alright, you’re blinking off and on that we refer to – that is sporadic. That does not have to be regulated like clock time.
好的，你正在进行的这种我们所说的"开关"状态——是随机发生的。它不需要像时钟时间那样被严格规范。

JOHN: It’s a random event.
约翰：这是个随机事件。

DATRE: It’s a random event and whatever triggered that. It can be a smell. It can be a taste. It can be a hearing. It can be a seeing. It can be a touch.
达崔：这是个随机事件，任何事物都可能触发它。可能是一种气味，可能是一种味道，可能是听到的声音，可能是看到的景象，也可能是触摸的感觉。

So its all of these things that you’ll recognize and in that moment or recognition you will pop-off to where that particular event took place.
所有这些你能够识别的事物，在识别的那一刻，你就会瞬间闪回到那个特定事件发生的地方。

Say that you are walking in an airport and you, as a man, walk past a woman that walks past you, going toward you, and as she walked past your body you recognized a perfume. What happens is, that sparked a memory.
假设你正走在机场，作为男性，你与一位迎面走来的女士擦肩而过。当她经过你身边时，你识别出了一种香水味。这时发生的是，这个气味激发了一段记忆。

Now, the memory’s pattern is brain, but in order to re-experience and say, “This is what happened, so in so wore this perfume” and you’ll bring up a whole story. Now, how did you get that story?
此刻，记忆的模式存在于大脑中，但为了重新体验并说出"当时是这样的，某某喷了这款香水"，你会唤起整个故事。那么，你是如何获取这个故事的？

That is out of your body.
那已超出了你的身体范畴。

JOHN: And you thought you were just running the recorder on something.
约翰：你还以为只是在用记录仪录制某些内容。

DATRE: What do you mean by running the recorder?
DATRE：你说的"运行记录仪"是什么意思？

JOHN: Well, every event, every physical even is recorded in the brain and things will trigger the recorder and you’ll have a whole visual presentation of an event of many, many years ago, as clear as when it happened. That’s what I mean by running the recorder.
约翰：你看，每一个事件，每一个物理现象都会被大脑记录下来。当某些事物触发这个"记录仪"时，你就能完整重现多年前某个事件的视觉画面，清晰得如同刚刚发生。这就是我所说的"回放记录"。

That’s not out of the body. That’s triggering the brain dynamics into its pattern recognition.
这并非灵魂出窍。这只是触发了大脑动态进入其模式识别状态。

DATRE: That’s what I wanted, you gave me what I wanted.
达崔：这正是我想要的，你给出了我需要的答案。

Alright, now, lets do this thing again. You’re walking in an airport, a woman is coming towards you, as she passes you, you recognize the perfume. That recognition sparks – that woman is not in your physical time frame. This woman was your mother in the 1800’s.
好了，现在让我们再做个实验。假设你正在机场行走，迎面走来一位女士。当她经过时，你认出了她身上的香水味。这种识别会瞬间触发——这位女士并不属于你当前的物理时间线。她其实是你在 19 世纪时的母亲。

Now, what happens?
现在，会发生什么？

You go out and see that picture.
你走出去看到那幅画。

JOHN: Yes, without any advantage to make the distinction. Because you wouldn’t relate… well it all depends on how visual the imagery was.
约翰：是的，没有任何优势来区分。因为你不会联想到……好吧，这完全取决于图像的视觉化程度。

DATRE: That’s right.
DATRE：没错。

It can be another event that you experienced. Where there was someone you spoke to, that you were impressed by in the 1800’s.
也可能是你经历过的另一件事。在 19 世纪，你曾与某个让你印象深刻的人交谈过。

You go out and you connect to that, you come back in. That may give you an answer to something that you were thinking about doing or saying or somebody seeing someone or whatever. And those are not recorder minutes.
你走出去与那个世界连接，再回到自身。这或许能为你正在思考要做的事、要说的话、要见的人提供答案。而这些都不会被记录在案。

You see, that’s what makes it so difficult because people don’t realize that they can… you’re fluid. You don’t always have to be in the body, because the minute you’re out of body, there’s no time.
你看，这正是困难所在——人们没意识到自己可以...你是流动的存在。不必时刻拘泥于肉身，因为一旦脱离躯体，时间便不复存在。

Now, how would they find that event in the 1800’s?
那么，他们要如何在 19 世纪找到那个事件呢？

You see, you think you have to go and find a note book and find page 742 and this is where it happened, I’ll connect in there.
要知道，你以为必须去翻找笔记本，找到第 742 页记载事件的地方才能建立连接。

Your brain controls you. And when you’re out of body in an instant, you’re not still in the physical body.
你的大脑控制着你。而当你瞬间脱离肉体时，你就已经不在物质身体里了。

JOHN: Yes, I understand that… its really slightly different than that from my way of looking at it. Since the body is the artificial “costume” all you’re doing, really, is rather than focusing on the costume, you’re focusing on “you” and there’s no limit to the latitudes available.
约翰：是的，我理解...但从我的角度来看，这确实有些不同。既然身体只是人造的"戏服"，你真正在做的是——不再关注戏服本身，而是聚焦于"真正的你"，这样就能获得无限的可能性。

DATRE: That’s right. That’s exactly right.
DATRE：没错。完全正确。

Its like we’ve said many times, its where your focus is.
就像我们多次说过的，关键在于你的注意力聚焦在哪里。

JOHN: Right, its where you attention is, whichever way it is. That’s how we shift realities all over the place. But the reason we shift realities all over the place and the body seems to always be, is because the body follows us.
约翰：没错，关键在于你的注意力所在，无论以何种方式。这就是我们如何随时随地切换现实的方式。但我们之所以能不断切换现实而身体看似始终存在，是因为身体始终跟随着我们。

Its pattern is set by us. Its arrangement is set by us. So, there’s nothing permanent about it. The body is totally fluid and its imagery is maintained, even though it is never in the same place twice.
它的模式由我们设定，它的构造由我们设定。因此它并非永恒不变。身体是完全流动的，尽管它从未两次处于同一位置，其形象却得以维持。

DATRE: But, the thing is you see, out of body is instantaneous.
达崔：但关键在于，出体体验是瞬间发生的。

JOHN: Yes, but that’s an unfortunate term – out of body. We are always out of body and I know its always used that way. But I’m seeing a different recognition in my self. But really, its more like, the point is, when are you “in” the body? Because most of the time you’re out of body.
约翰：是的，但"出体"这个说法并不准确。我们其实始终处于"出体"状态——虽然这个说法已成惯例。不过我现在有了新的认知。更准确的说法应该是：你什么时候是真正"在"身体里的？因为绝大多数时候你都处于"出体"状态。

Its only, not only for maintenance, but for periods of experience that you want to experience via the body. So you are present and accounted for so far as using the body. But, otherwise you’re not present and accounted for and the body is on sort of a maintenance program.
这不仅是为了维持身体机能，更是为了让你通过躯体去体验那些你想经历的生命阶段。此刻你确实以物质形态存在并参与其中，但除此之外你并未真正临在，身体只是处于某种维生状态。

DATRE: But when you’re out of body for such a short period of time, and that’s when the blinks come in.
DATRE：但当你的意识短暂离开身体时，就会产生那些"瞬间空白"。

JOHN: Clock time.
约翰：指的是钟表时间。

DATRE: Yes. Because the blinks come in because of the short period of your time that’s recorded in the brain.
DATRE：没错。因为那些意识空白源于大脑记录的短暂时间片段。

JOHN: That’s why we’re blinking so much.
约翰：这就是我们眨眼如此频繁的原因。

DATRE: Yes. And not only that, but you take the individuals that are running off of Mass Consciousness that are perpetually busy. Their attention is held in the body because of whatever.
达崔：没错。不仅如此，那些被大众意识驱使、永远忙碌的人也是如此。他们的注意力因各种原因被牢牢锁在身体里。

They hold it there, they grasp it so tightly. They’re cooking, the kids are screaming the mans at work, they’re very bodily focused. So their out of body time is miniscule.
他们紧抓着身体意识不放。做饭时孩子尖叫，工作时丈夫在场——他们极度聚焦于肉体层面，因此出体时间微乎其微。

That is how you have become entrapped, shall we say, in your physical clothing.
可以说，这就是你们被囚禁在肉体衣装中的方式。

JOHN: As a species.
约翰：作为一个物种。

DATRE: As a species. Now, those very individuals that, most of the time, do not get enough sleep.
道瑞：作为一个物种。现在，那些大多数时候睡眠不足的个体。

Now, if you stay in the physical construct and you don’t sleep enough, so that you’re running off the inner body energy. Your body energy… people will say, “I don’t have any energy” or they’re tired.
如果你停留在物质构造中且睡眠不足，就会消耗内在身体能量。你的身体能量...人们会说"我没有任何精力"或者感到疲惫。

Their physical body much as you look at it as an illusion, those Anu’s which make physicality, still have to be maintained. That’s why you have to eat. That’s why you have to sleep.
尽管你将物质身体视为幻象，那些构成物质性的阿努仍需要维持。这就是为什么你需要进食，需要睡眠。

JOHN: You also have to… there’s a characteristic of physicalness that results in chemical toxins. So if you don’t sleep and if you don’t rejuvenate by leaving the body, then the body becomes a medical problem.
约翰：你还必须考虑到……肉身的特性会导致化学毒素的产生。所以如果你不睡觉，不通过离开身体来恢复活力，那么身体就会变成医学问题。

DATRE: It becomes overwhelmed by the intake of everything.
道瑞：身体会被摄入的一切压垮。

JOHN: Right, its never been released. It hasn’t had its purging that is necessary..
约翰：没错，它从未得到释放。它没有进行必要的净化过程。

DATRE: Well, they’ll say, well the elimination through the pours and all this. But that isn’t the same thing.
道瑞：嗯，人们会说通过毛孔排泄之类的。但那不是一回事。

JOHN: No, that’s a completely different thing.
约翰：不，那完全是两码事。

DATRE: That’s while you’re still in the body. In order to release and let the Anu’s, the molecules, the atoms within your body refresh themselves, the only way they can do it is if you’re not in it holding them there.
DATRE：那是在你仍处于身体内时。为了让阿努（Anu）、分子和你体内的原子得以更新，唯一的方式就是你不在体内束缚它们。

Because, what happens, in sleep, your heart rate goes way down so you’re more or less at a state of suspended animation. Then the thing is you’re not pushing the body in any direction.
因为在睡眠状态下，你的心率会大幅下降，使你或多或少处于假死状态。这时你就不会对身体施加任何方向的压力。

In other words, if the body isn’t comfortable or hears a noise or something it will make a signal for you to get back in. That’s an automatic thing.
换句话说，如果身体感到不适或听到噪音等，它会发出信号让你回来。这是自动发生的机制。

But then, you could be out in the universe some place and that signal is still there.
但那时，你可能身处宇宙某处，而那个信号依然存在。

Then what you’ve done is you’ve said, you’ll go out of body and look down and you can see the umbilical cord – the silver cord or whatever you want to call it.
然后你所做的就是宣称，你将脱离肉体向下看，就能看见那条脐带——银色的绳索或随便你怎么称呼它。

You do that so that you do not have the fear of being detached. I’m sorry to tell you, that’s another belief system. Now that will explain the silver cord.
你这样做是为了避免对脱离肉体的恐惧。很遗憾地告诉你，那不过是另一种信念体系。现在这就能解释银色绳索的由来了。

JOHN: Its exactly the same thing as those that have had near death experiences and they experience this tunnel of light and all that – they’re dealing with a belief system and the belief system says there’s a tunnel of light or whatever.
约翰：这和那些有过濒死体验的人完全一样——他们经历光之隧道之类的现象，其实是在应对一个信念体系，这个体系告诉他们存在光之隧道诸如此类的东西。

Its hard to say where it would come from because the make-up of those beliefs go all over the place. It isn’t just this physical experience that they’re dealing with.
很难确切指出这些信念源自何处，因为它们的构成要素遍布各处。他们面对的不仅仅是这种物质层面的体验。

You’re dealing with multitudinous physical experiences and any one of them could be the source of those beliefs.
你面对的是无数种物质体验，其中任何一种都可能成为那些信念的来源。

It isn’t so much that you need to change beliefs so much as you need to “insert” the beliefs you want to work with. That will take care of the belief question.
与其说你需要改变信念，不如说你更需要"植入"那些你想运用的信念。这样自然就能解决信念问题。

DATRE: And the other thing is when you continue to get new information that you understand – like the silver cord as an instance – oh, then I’m really not attached to… They think of a silver cord as you can only go so far.
DATRE：另外需要注意的是，当你持续获得能理解的新信息时——比如以银线为例——哦，原来我其实并不受限于...他们把银线想象成某种只能延伸到一定范围的束缚。

Now, that limits, immediately limits your potential of anything different because you’re afraid to get to the end of where the silver cord can go.
这样一来，就立刻限制了你体验任何不同事物的可能性，因为你害怕触及银索延伸的尽头。

JOHN: They’re also afraid of getting it tangled up by going to too many places.
约翰：他们还担心去太多地方会让银索缠结起来。

DATRE: Oh, that’s another good one, yes. Then how do I come back if it gets tangled?
道瑞：哦，这倒是个好问题，没错。要是缠住了我怎么回来呢？

JOHN: I’d better watch out where I go and what I do because otherwise this silver cored is going to get all tangled up.
约翰：我最好当心自己去的地方和做的事，不然这根银索就要缠成一团乱麻了。

DATRE: This is going to be worked on at the end of the book. Because how do cultures move from one place to another? They don’t have the silver cord from there. So they don’t know that they can’t come here.
DATRE：这个问题将在本书末尾探讨。因为文化是如何从一个地方迁移到另一个地方的？他们那里并没有银线连接。所以他们不知道自己无法来到这里。

Its like the people that used to be in those sections on your planet that could be hacking away with stuff in an area, clearing out a space or whatever and they’ve got these great big long knives and someone is ready to chop down this great big plant and somebody hollers at that person and they come down and chop their arm off, right below the elbow.
就像你们星球上某些地区的人，可能正用工具在某处砍伐清理，挥舞着巨大的长刀。当有人准备砍倒一株巨型植物时，旁人突然大喊一声，结果那人手起刀落，直接把同伴的手臂从肘部以下砍断了。

Then they stand still for a while and grow that arm back.. Now they know they can do it. Nobody has told them they can’t.
然后他们静静站一会儿，手臂就会重新长出来..现在他们知道自己能做到。从来没人告诉他们这是不可能的。

Because, you see, they know they still have the arm, all they have to do is fill it in.
因为你看，他们知道自己仍然拥有那条手臂，只需要将其重新填充出来。

Alright, amputees, you’ve heard them complain, “Well my toes hurt” – but you don’t have any toes. You’ve been amputated just below the knee so you don’t have toes. “But my toes are hurting”.
好了，截肢者们，你们总听他们抱怨说"哎哟我脚趾疼"——可你根本没有脚趾啊。你的截肢部位在膝盖以下，哪来的脚趾呢。"但我的脚趾就是疼嘛"。

JOHN: That is a common story.
约翰：这种情况很常见。

DATRE: A very common story. But you see, if you’ve never been told that when that’s cut off its gone its different.
达崔：确实非常普遍。但你看，如果从来没人告诉你截肢后那部分就消失了，情况就会不同。

JOHN: That’s why you can’t re-grow it, because in order to re-grow it you have to be aware that its gone. It’s the awareness that its gone that’s the problem. If you didn’t have that awareness, re-growth isn’t even a question. Because you would spontaneously re-assemble.
约翰：这就是为什么无法再生肢体——要想再生，你必须先意识到肢体已缺失。问题恰恰出在这种"缺失认知"上。若没有这种认知，肢体再生根本不成问题，因为你会自然而然地重组肢体。

DATRE: People that were watching and seen that happen say that it was just a matter of a couple of minutes. Then they just pick up their knife and go on hacking away, there’s no problem.
DATRE：目击者们描述说整个过程不过几分钟。随后他们就能若无其事地拾起砍刀继续劈砍，完全不受影响。

Those people do exist, or they did exist.
这类人确实存在，或者说曾经存在过。

JOHN: There is a whole culture in Ethiopia that ended up with that kind of civilization or village life as a result of work by the missionaries before World War II.
JOHN：埃塞俄比亚有整个族群最终形成了那种文明形态或村落生活方式，这要归功于二战前传教士们的工作。

The missionaries were translating the bible into the native language. They had about half of the bible translated and the Italians invaded Ethiopia and kicked all the missionaries out.
当时传教士们正在将圣经翻译成当地语言。他们刚完成约半部圣经的翻译，意大利人就入侵埃塞俄比亚并驱逐了所有传教士。

Then one of the missionaries was curious and many years after the war went back to that area and these village people were spontaneously healing themselves and doing all kinds of good different things because that’s what the bible said you could do.
后来其中一位传教士感到好奇，战后多年重返那个地区，发现村民们正在自发地治愈自己，做着各种美好的善行，因为他们相信圣经上说人可以做到这些事。

So that was their belief system. That was a place where they built a belief system because the missionaries didn’t get the “you can’t” part of the bible translated.
这就是他们的信仰体系。他们在那里建立了一套信仰体系，因为传教士们没有把圣经中"你不能"的部分翻译给他们听。

DATRE: We were talking about bending things like porcelain with the mind.
DATRE：我们刚才在讨论用意识弯曲瓷器这类物品。

JOHN: Yes, Dr. Andrija Puharich had a whole bunch of what he called “space kids” and all of them could manipulate things with their minds. Particularly metal objects, twist them etc. and that’s exactly what we’re talking about.
JOHN：是的，安德烈雅·普哈里奇博士有一群他称为"太空儿童"的孩子，他们都能用意识操控物体。尤其是金属物品，可以扭曲变形等等，这正是我们讨论的现象。

They could do this not because metal had any particular quality, but because our belief system accepted that metal was bendable.
他们能做到这一点，并非因为金属具有某种特殊性质，而是因为我们的信念体系认可金属是可弯曲的。

There are whole regions of these people still around this planet. These people were triggered just right and bingo.
地球上至今仍遍布着这类人群的聚居地。这些人被恰到好处地触发后——瞧，奇迹就发生了。

DATRE: That’s because they don’t do it any more.
DATRE：那是因为他们不再这么做了。

JOHN: Right, and the fact that they bent metal with their minds, the critics have smothered them. You cannot talk about porcelain objects being bent. Then the critics would come unglued. What do you think?
JOHN：没错，而且鉴于他们用念力弯曲金属的事实，批评者们已经将其彻底压制。你甚至不能谈论瓷器被弯曲的事例，否则那些批评者会彻底崩溃。你觉得呢？

DATRE: You can mentally bend this porcelain and then straighten it. But, its like you say, metal is the thing that was used, it was then discounted.
DATRE：你可以在意念中弯曲这件瓷器，然后再把它弄直。但就像你说的，金属才是被使用的东西，后来就被摒弃了。

JOHN: Then there were a lot of critics who figured out ways that you could do that. But, they really weren’t doing it.
JOHN：当时有很多评论家想出了实现这种效果的方法。但实际上他们并没有真正做到。

DATRE: Ask your question again.
DATRE：请再重复一遍你的问题。

JOHN: Why don’t you pick flowers?
JOHN：你为什么不摘花呢？

DATRE: Because that is their expression and I have no right to kill another’s expression.
DATRE：因为那是他们的表达方式，我无权扼杀他人的表达。

You don’t think twice about cutting flowers. Cutting grass. Cutting trees. But that is your civilization and that is what you do.
你们毫不犹豫地剪下花朵。修剪草坪。砍伐树木。但这就是你们的文明，这就是你们的行事方式。

But your thought patterns are a great deal different than our thought patterns. We do not believe in taking the essence of that which is expressing and cutting it off from its expression.
但你们的思维模式与我们的思维模式大不相同。我们不相信应该剥夺正在表达之物的精髓，切断它与自我表达的联系。

JOHN: Each thing is the only thing that has the right to terminate its own expression when its sense of purpose or whatever is no longer there.
JOHN：每个存在都是唯一有权在自己感到目标或意义不复存在时，终止自我表达的主体。

DATRE: Yes, its just like you. You have a perfect right to terminate your expression when you want it terminated. But, because of what you have, your accidents, your wars and all of these other things.
DATRE：是的，这就像你自己一样。你完全有权在自己想要终止时结束你的生命表达。但正因为你们所处的现状——那些意外事故、战争等等事件的存在。

Now, you will only die if you prefer to die. But it isn’t no one else’s right to harm your expression in any way.
现在，只有当你自己选择死亡时才会死去。但任何人都无权以任何方式伤害你的生命表达。

JOHN: They can’t without your permission.
JOHN：没有你的允许，他们做不到。

DATRE: That’s right. So, you decide you don’t want to die, so it can’t be done, one way or the other.
DATRE：没错。所以只要你决定不想死，那么无论通过什么方式，死亡都无法强加于你。

JOHN: There are many examples of that, we have many of them in a war for example. One particular example from the Korean war where an individual had 50 machine-gun bullets in him and he didn’t die. But, there were a great many who died from just one bullet.
约翰：这样的例子不胜枚举，比如在战争中就有很多。朝鲜战争中有个特别的例子，一个人身中 50 发机枪子弹却活了下来。然而也有很多人仅因一颗子弹就丧命。

Its simply their choice.
这完全是他们的选择。

DATRE: Yes, its just their choice as to what you want to experience.
DATRE：是的，这只是他们选择想要体验的经历。

JOHN: There is an example of an Iragy child that I heard of earlier today. He is just a ten year old and he was fascinated by this round object, he thought it was a toy. Well it was a land mine.
约翰：我今天早些时候还听说一个伊拉克孩子的例子。那只是个十岁的孩子，他被这个圆形物体吸引，以为是个玩具。结果那是一枚地雷。

He picked it up and it blew both of his hands off, blew a hole in his stomach and all kinds of a mess.
他刚捡起来，那东西就炸飞了他的双手，在腹部炸出一个大洞，场面一片狼藉。

He’s alive today and he’s a happy child and having a great time.
如今他还活着，是个快乐的孩子，过得非常开心。

DATRE: And one eye was destroyed.
DATRE：而且一只眼睛被炸毁了。

JOHN: Yes, you heard the same thing then.
约翰：对，你当时也听到了同样的话。

DATRE: Yes! He’s happy because he’s sitting in his daddy’s lap and he’s picking up English very quickly.
DATRE：是的！他很开心，因为他正坐在爸爸的腿上，而且英语学得很快。

JOHN: But he chose not to die under those conditions. He chose it as an experience.
JOHN：但他选择不在那种情况下死去。他选择将其作为一种体验。

DATRE: And he didn’t know where the experience was going to lead him, but he took a chance. The experience lead him to the United States and now he has undergone operations and there will be more operations.
DATRE：他当时并不知道这段经历会将他引向何方，但他抓住了机会。这段经历将他带到了美国，现在他已经接受了手术，未来还会有更多手术。

JOHN: But he’s satisfied with his situation, it worked out as far as he’s concerned.
JOHN：但他对自己的现状很满意，就他而言，事情进展得很顺利。

DATRE: We were talking about out of body experiences. We were talking about when you go out of body, knowingly go out of body and look down and see your silver cord. That is also a belief system that has been adopted. So that you do not fear being separated from your physical body.
DATRE：我们之前讨论过出体体验。谈到当你有意识地离开身体，向下看并看到自己的银线时。这也是一个被广泛接受的信念体系，目的是让你不害怕与肉体分离。

Then what happens is, you’ll be watching that silver cord and wondering how far you can go before you come to the end of the silver cord.
接下来会发生的是，你会一直盯着那条银线，琢磨着在银线用完之前自己能走多远。

That’s what stops you from going any further, you’re afraid your going to run out of silver cord.
正是这种想法阻止了你继续前进——你害怕银线会突然断开。

Now, if you did not have the belief that you were going to run out of cord, and didn’t look for a silver cord, you would be allowed to travel.
其实，如果你没有"银线会用尽"这个信念，也不去刻意寻找银线，你就能自由地遨游了。

But, the thing is, you look back and say, well I better not go any further. Oh, I’m way out here, I can still see the silver cord, so I better… I wonder how tangled up its going to be? I wonder if I’ve got it all tangled up with these other people that are out here.
但问题是，当你回头张望时就会想：我最好别再往前了。天啊，我已经飘出这么远，虽然还能看见银线，但最好...不知道这根线会不会缠成一团？会不会和其他飘在外面的灵魂缠在一起？

I’ll bet there are a lot of other people out here. What if I got it all tangled up and I don’t know how to get back again? Panic, panic, panic.
我敢打赌外面肯定飘着不少人。要是银线全缠在一起，找不到回去的路怎么办？恐慌，恐慌，太恐慌了。

But, you put that silver cord as a safeguard, because you’re so afraid of loosing physicality.
可你设置这根银线当保险绳，恰恰是因为你太害怕失去肉身。

JOHN: Not only that, you have created yourself a body to travel in because you are petrified of being without one.
约翰：不仅如此，你还专门造了个旅行用的身体，就因为害怕处于无身体状态。

DATRE: That’s right.
DATRE：没错。

JOHN: So there’s two things you do. You create a body and a silver cord to connect bodies to bodies because of your fear.
JOHN：所以你们做了两件事。出于恐惧，你们创造了一个身体和一条银线来连接身体与身体。

DATRE: Of not having a body.
DATRE：害怕没有身体。

JOHN: Right!
约翰：没错！

DATRE: But if you’ve ever traveled without a body – that is shear enjoyment. You can do summersaults you can do all kinds of things. You can do anything.
DATRE：但如果你曾试过脱离躯体旅行——那才是纯粹的享受。你可以翻筋斗，可以做各种事情。你可以为所欲为。

JOHN: People will ask, what kind of body did you have? Body? Who had a body.
JOHN：人们会问，你当时拥有怎样的躯体？躯体？谁还需要躯体。

DATRE: The release is not having a body. Then what happens, you then decide, well what do I do now? Is there anybody around? There you are, and there’s nobody. There’s nothing, absolutely nothing.
DATRE：真正的解脱就是摆脱躯体。然后你会想，现在我该做什么？周围有人吗？你就在那里，却空无一人。什么都没有，绝对的空无。

JOHN: And you’re it.
JOHN：而你即是全部。

DATRE: And you’re it. Then you say, well there’s got to be somebody some place. That’s when someone appears.
DATRE：而你就是那个存在。然后你会说，肯定在某个地方还有别人。这时就会有人出现。

JOHN: Or some group of someone’s.
JOHN：或者某个群体。

DATRE: That’s right.
DATRE：没错。

JOHN: They are respecting you by not interfering with you and your experience, until you ask for it.
JOHN：他们通过不干涉你和你的体验来尊重你，直到你主动提出请求。

DATRE: That’s right. Then when you ask for help
DATRE：没错。当你寻求帮助时

– there it is.
——帮助就来了。

And the thing is, this is so interesting, because, you see, you’re never alone.
有趣的是，你永远不会真正孤单。

But, being alone is what is the fascination. Then, its like everything else, you get tired of being out there doing summersaults and whizzing around and all that other kind of stuff mentally.
但独处恰恰是最迷人的部分。就像其他事情一样，你终会厌倦那些精神层面的翻腾与喧嚣。

We call it mental, because you have come from a physical construct. So you have that word structure that you use. And the thing is you are able to recognize or play with a summersault or a whirling around and all of these other kinds of things.
我们称之为"心智"，因为你来自物质构造的世界。所以你拥有并使用着那样的词汇结构。关键在于，你能够识别或体验诸如翻筋斗、旋转等各种动作。

But, when its nothing but black “space” – what you call and interpret as black space, then it becomes boring, because there isn’t anything else there. There’s no objects, there’s no people, there’s no nothing.
但是，当那里只有漆黑的"空间"——你所称并解读为漆黑空间时，就会变得乏味，因为那里别无他物。没有物体，没有人，什么都没有。

JOHN: Because you haven’t put them there.
约翰：因为你没有在那里放置它们。

DATRE: You haven’t put anything there, because you have enjoyed not having anything there.
DATRE：你没有在那里放置任何东西，因为你享受那里空无一物的状态。

So, because of physicality being the basis for everything in this humungous universe, you don’t even begin be able to comprehend the size of. But this is a created universe. You create bodies. You create everything you see.
因此，在这个浩瀚到无法理解的宇宙中，物质性是万物的基础。但这是一个被创造的宇宙。你们创造了躯体，创造了目之所及的一切。

It’s a created universe of using Anu’s and molecules and atoms and putting something together that you can visually see from the physical construct. That’s the fascination.
这是一个运用阿努、分子和原子构建而成的宇宙，通过物质结构让你们能够直观地看见。这正是其迷人之处。

You see, in here, if you don’t have a physical beingness you become quickly bored with mental activity thinking, because this universe isn’t built, your universe I should say, your planetary universe, is not based on mental activity.
要知道，在这里若没有物质存在形式，你们很快就会对纯粹的心智活动感到厌倦——因为这个宇宙（准确说是你们的行星宇宙）并非建立在心智活动之上。

Like, we don’t speak. We prefer… you call it mental telepathy. But mental telepathy to you is person to person. But ours isn’t person to person. It is, if it is so directed.
比如我们不需要言语交流。我们更倾向于...你们称之为心灵感应。但你们的心灵感应是人与人之间的，而我们的并非如此。只有当需要定向传递时才会发生。

But, basically its not. We work with a lot of… actually were like in a sea of activity that is creative but doesn’t need communication. That is different.
但本质上并非如此。我们身处大量...实际上就像置身于一片充满创意却无需交流的活动海洋中。这是截然不同的。

JOHN: It’s a fundamental thing, that you are aware of whatever you wish to be aware of by determining to be aware of it.
约翰：这是一个根本原则——你通过决定去觉察，就能觉察任何你想觉察的事物。

DATRE: Yes, but we direct it.
DATRE：是的，但由我们主导这个过程。

JOHN: That’s what I’m saying. The awareness isn’t there unless you so desire.
约翰：这正是我想表达的。除非你主动渴望，否则觉察就不会存在。

DATRE: That’s right. But, there again, you have the tendency to think that you have to… you’re a nuts and bolts, I cannot think of any other way to describe it. You’re a nuts and bolts type of physicality.
DATRE：没错。但话说回来，你们总倾向于认为自己必须……你们是"螺丝螺母"式的思维，我找不到更贴切的形容了。你们的物质存在方式就是这种"螺丝螺母"式的。

That is, unless you talk to somebody or have a tool to do something, you’re not in the creative capacity. Mentally, its an entirely different civilization. But this is the one you’re familiar with.
也就是说，除非你们与人交谈或借助工具做事，否则就进入不了创造状态。从心智层面看，这完全是另一种文明形态。但这就是你们熟悉的模式。

But, the thing is, if we can get you to see a little less of your limitations, then we will have achieved something.
关键在于，如果我们能让你稍微突破些自我设限，那我们就达成目标了。

We thank you. We are Datre
我们感谢你。我们是 Datre

QUESTIONS AND REPLYS
问答集

JOHN: (JULY 2005) What is the relationship between Mass consciousness and Individual consciousness
约翰：（2005 年 7 月）集体意识与个体意识之间是什么关系？

DATRE: All mental and emotional activity results in the creation of “thought forms”. There are local clusters of these thought forms and global clusters of these thought forms.
DATRE：所有心智与情感活动都会形成"思想形态"。这些思想形态既会形成区域性集群，也会形成全球性集群。

All thought forms operate on the “like attracts like” principle. Therefore they will gather together into huge clumps of highly charged emotional matter – usually invisible to physical sight.
所有思想形态都遵循"同频相吸"原则。因此它们会聚集成高度带电的情感物质团块——这些通常肉眼不可见。

What we call Mass Consciousness are those large “globs” of either local or global clusters of these thought forms. In general, people are too lazy to pay attention to where their thoughts come from. Most people 90+% have no idea where their beliefs and thoughts originate from.
我们所说的"大众意识"是指这些思想形态在局部或全球范围内聚集形成的大规模"思想团块"。总的来说，人们往往懒得去关注自己思想的来源。超过 90%的人根本不知道自己的信念和想法从何而来。

This results in their tapping into these large masses of thought forms for their life guidance.
这导致他们在人生指引方面依赖这些庞大的思想集合体。

Individual “awareness” ( We say that there is no such a thing as consciousness in the terms defined by science) is the result of keeping your personal thought forms in a state where “you” know what “you” are thinking about. You know “where” your thoughts are coming from insofar as that they originate from some level of the “you that you are” and “not from some Mass thinking background.
个体的"觉知"(我们认为科学定义的"意识"并不存在)是指保持个人思想形态处于这样一种状态：你清楚知道自己在思考什么。你能辨识思想的来源——它们来自"你所是的那个你"的某个层面，而非来自某些大众思维的背景噪音。

In other words, you are you functioning as “you” and observing “what” you are doing and not going through life half asleep functioning off the thoughts of others..
换句话说，你作为真正的"你"在运作，观察着"你"正在做什么，而不是浑浑噩噩地靠着别人的思想度过一生。

JOHN: I understand most of our focus should be on our “self development”, however, why do I feel so strongly pulled toward a path that seems to be leading to a “stage/school operator” or “torch carrier” (actually not just pull, but also push, the hand-clapping vs. hand-slapping)
约翰：我明白我们大部分注意力应该放在"自我发展"上，但为什么我会如此强烈地被一条看似通往"舞台/学校运营者"或"火炬传递者"的道路所吸引（实际上不仅是吸引，还有推动，就像鼓掌与击掌的区别）

DATRE: That happens as a result of “you” opening up to “you” – the creator that you are. When you start that journey it will automatically begin to turn your focus toward groups of “others” from which you can learn even more. You are beginning to understand the basic rule of Self discovery “there are no student/teacher relationships – all learning is done in a “learn/teach, teach/learn” relationship”.
DATRE：这种现象源于"你"向"你"——作为创造者的自己——敞开心扉。当你开启这段旅程时，它会自动将你的注意力转向"他人"群体，从中你能学到更多。你开始理解自我发现的基本法则："不存在学生/教师的关系——所有学习都是在'学/教，教/学'的关系中完成的"。

Unfortunately, all too few seem to learn that.
遗憾的是，似乎很少有人能领悟这一点。

For John personally, he can’t imagine anything that could be more fun than learning. Then once he learns he can pass that on to others. But once again, in that process he also learns.
对约翰个人而言，他无法想象还有什么比学习更有趣的事。当他学会后，就能将知识传递给他人。但再次强调，在这个过程中他同样在学习。

As an aside, it is interesting that you seem to be being pushed toward some sort of learning center. We also have been looking into that possibility. Sort of a lecture place with a good book store and psychic/science training facility all rolled into one.
顺便一提，有趣的是你似乎正被推向某种学习中心的方向。我们也一直在探讨这种可能性——将优质书店、心灵/科学培训设施与讲座场所融为一体的空间。

JOHN: In the opening paragraph, Datre mentioned one person’s words can hurt others, if “others” are just our image, how did this happen?
约翰：在开场段落中，Datre 提到一个人的言语可能伤害他人，如果"他人"只是我们心中的影像，这种情况是如何发生的？

DATRE: Every one and every thing are just your individual image of that someone or something. It cannot be otherwise, since it is you who are creating that image that you are interacting with. They are also creating their image of you and these two images continually change as the exchange continues.
DATRE：每个人每件事都只是你对某人某物的个体化影像。不可能存在其他情况，因为正是你在创造与之互动的影像。他们也在创造关于你的影像，随着交流持续，这两个影像不断变化。

But, your image is also “Not” their image. So they might use that occasion to trigger an emotional interplay to try and help themselves understand something about themselves that they needed.
但你的影像也"并非"他们的影像。因此他们可能利用这种情境触发情感互动，试图帮助自己理解某些他们需要的内在课题。

JOHN: What actually happened when we do or say something to the “other people” in our reality? who is actually being affected? Is there really others, or just reflections of different portions of my-SELF?
约翰：当我们对现实中的"他人"做出某种言行时，究竟发生了什么？真正受到影响的是谁？真的存在他人吗？还是说他们只是我不同面向的投射？

DATRE: There are many, many billions of “others”. But, those others are not what you know, you can only know your “image” of those others.
道瑞：存在着数以亿计的"他人"。但这些他人并非你所认知的模样，你只能感知到你对这些他人形成的"意象"。

There are also a vast number of expressions of the “you that you are” within the many “layers” of this physical universe that we call “realities”. These are not the same you that you recognize as inhabiting your body. They are different “versions” of the “you that you are” exploring other aspects of physicality.
在这个被我们称为"现实"的物质宇宙的诸多层面中，还存在着无数个"当下之你"的显化。这些并非你认知中居住在你身体里的同一个你，而是"当下之你"探索物质实相其他面向的不同"版本"。

This is one of the main methods that “you” – the true “you” – uses to gather as many possibilities and probabilities experiences as you can.
这正是"真正的你"用来收集尽可能多的可能性与或然性体验的主要方式之一。

JOHN: A related question, instead of “hurt”, if that is possible, and IF, there is the “others” in our reality, how about “help”? when will it be proper to offer “support” and “help” to others.
约翰：一个相关的问题，如果不谈"伤害"的话——假设这是可能的，并且如果我们现实中确实存在"他人"，那么关于"帮助"呢？什么时候才适合向他人提供"支持"和"帮助"？

DATRE: You can always “offer”. But few really want to “offer” they want to “tell”.
DATRE：你随时都可以"主动提供"。但很少有人真正想"提供帮助"，他们更想"说教"。

When someone is looking for some answers and they feel that you could help, then “they” will instigate a condition where they will be asking for your help.
当有人在寻找某些答案，并觉得你能帮忙时，"他们"会主动创造向你求助的情境。

Much like your friend George. He was obviously feeling uncomfortable with his decision to get out of structured religion and used your help to give him the answers he felt comfortable with.
就像你的朋友乔治。他显然对脱离建制宗教的决定感到不安，于是借助你的帮助来获得让他心安的答案。

JOHN: For the last question, can there be some discussion in reference to the matrix between individual consciousness – I individual consciousness - “the other person” in the event Mass-Consciousness - the context of event
约翰：关于最后一个问题，能否就个体意识——即"我"这个个体意识——与"他人"在群体意识事件中的关联矩阵展开讨论？

DATRE: The “I” part is very simple. The “I” is that grand intelligence inhabiting the body you call “you”. Yet, at the same time you are “not” that body. That body is something you created for your use in exploring this grand amusement park called physicality.
道瑞：所谓"我"的部分其实非常简单。"我"是栖居在你称之为"你"的身体中的那个宏伟智能。但与此同时，你又"并非"那具身体。那具身体只是你为探索这个名为物质实相的巨型游乐园而创造的载具。

That “I” also never die’s. Nor for that matter does that body ever have to die. That is a habit that humans have gotten into since you invented death to expand our experience.
那个"我"是永不消亡的。事实上，就连那具身体也并非必须经历死亡。死亡只是人类为拓展体验而发明的习惯性概念。

That “other” person is in a similar position and may or may not be on an equal level of understanding and just want a sounding board to review their knowingness. Or, again, they might be ready for some new understanding and chose you to help them.
所谓的"他人"也处于相似境地，他们的理解层次或许与你相当，或许不等，可能只是需要共鸣板来验证其认知；又或者，他们可能正准备好接纳新理解，而选择由你来协助他们。

It is interesting that you use the term “event” in that context. The only thing that counts are the “events”. Events carry all of the treasure that we are seeking to understand. The gaps between events do not count.
有趣的是你在这个语境下使用了"事件"这个词。唯一重要的是那些"事件"。事件承载着我们试图理解的所有宝藏。事件之间的间隙无关紧要。

You only take the experience of the event and have no value in the process of getting to the event or leaving the event – only the “event” is of any value.
你只需关注事件本身的体验，在到达或离开事件的过程中毫无价值——只有"事件"本身才具有价值。

Most people get all tied up in the movements between events. “will I be late? What will so and so say? The traffic is all backed up, etc..
大多数人总是纠结于事件之间的过渡过程。"我会迟到吗？某某会怎么说？交通完全堵塞了"等等。

Bye the way, there is really no such thing as “artificial” intelligence. Everything has a fundamental intelligence. It is just a matter of our learning how to align that innate intelligence so that it will perform a desired task with little programming input. Once again, the same “learn/teach teach/learn”.
顺便说一句，其实根本不存在所谓的"人工"智能。万物皆有根本的智能。关键在于我们如何学会调整这种与生俱来的智能，使其只需少量编程输入就能执行预期任务。这再次印证了同样的"学/教 教/学"原理。

We are Datre
我们是道瑞

VIOLENCE
暴力

DATRE: (MAY 2006) Now, what we were discussing John, I will give you a little further information on that.
道瑞：（2006 年 5 月）约翰，关于我们刚才讨论的内容，我将为你提供更多相关信息。

So many people have asked about this business of the war and the road rage and the…
许多人都在询问关于战争、路怒症以及...这些事情

JOHN: Violence in general.
约翰：泛指暴力行为。

DATRE: Yeah. Well, what happens is, you see, in order to really round out your experience of physicality you need to have the fundamentals gone through, shall we say.
道瑞：没错。你看，实际情况是这样的，为了真正完善你们的物质体验，你们需要经历那些基础课程，可以这么说。

This is kindergarten, its first grade, it’s the beginnings of things. And what has happened is, until you have a complete understanding of what all of that is about, there is no sense in moving on and covering it up or ignoring it, because it has to be dealt with.
这就像幼儿园，是一年级，是万物的开端。关键在于，除非你们完全理解这一切的本质，否则继续前进、掩盖或忽视它都没有意义，因为这是必须面对的课题。

JOHN: First hand.
约翰：亲身经历的暴力。

DATRE: Absolutely. So what you’re seeing is, you’ve had violent wars in your first world war, your revolutionary wars, your...
道瑞：完全正确。你们所目睹的，包括第一次世界大战中的暴力冲突、独立战争中的暴力，以及...

JOHN: Civil wars.
约翰：内战。

DATRE: Civil wars, all the crusades, all the rise and fall of the Roman Empire, all of those things. There was tremendous numbers of people involved.
道瑞：内战，所有的十字军东征，罗马帝国的兴衰，所有这些事件。牵涉的人数极其庞大。

If peoples, at that time had realized that all this power could be used creatively, all these wars could have been stopped by statesmen through talking to each other and moving on.
如果当时的人们意识到这些力量本可用于创造性目的，所有战争本可以通过政治家们相互协商、继续前行而得以避免。

Now you continue the wars because you cannot seem to get the understanding, or learn the lessons of 1^st. grade.
你们继续发动战争，只因始终未能领悟或汲取小学一年级就该明白的道理。

Now, the numbers of people has diminished as your wars have continued. Even down to the second world war there was a tremendous amount of resistance.
如今，随着战火延烧，抵抗者数量锐减。即便到第二次世界大战时，仍有大规模抵抗运动。

Then you get into your Vietnam war and your…
接着你们又卷入越战和...

JOHN: Korean.
约翰：朝鲜战争。

DATRE: Korean war, those began to diminish and you began to speak out against wars. Even as to your second world war there was that feeling of going to war because you had to save something.
DATRE：朝鲜战争时期，人们开始减少参战意愿并公开反对战争。即使是你们的第二次世界大战，那种参战情绪也是出于"必须保卫某些东西"的使命感。

Now you’ve gone to war because of 9-11. The September eleventh disaster and so many people and so many people were killed. But it was small in comparison to previous wars.
如今你们因为 9·11 事件开战。这场九月十一日的灾难导致众多民众丧生，但与以往战争相比，其规模可谓微不足道。

Well, now you have to go to war again to find all these people that caused that which… you went looking in the wrong place, but that’s alright.
好吧，现在你们又得开战去追捕那些制造事件的人...虽然找错了方向，但这无妨。

What has to happen is you have to work yourselves out of these fundamental realities on a first hand experience.
关键在于，你们必须通过亲身体验来摆脱这些根本性的现实困境。

You have to be in the tragedy of loosing someone in a war, like loosing a member of the family or actually being in the war and working through that to the best of your ability.
你必须亲身经历战争带来的失去之痛，比如失去一位家庭成员，或是真正置身战场并竭尽全力应对这一切。

But, your wars are getting smaller. You’re down to small things – not in your estimation – but, we call them small things in comparison. Like road rage. Like your…
但你们的战争规模正在缩小。现在演变成一些小事——当然在你们看来并非如此——但相较之下我们称之为小事。比如路怒症。比如你们的...

JOHN: Riots.
约翰：暴乱。

DATRE: Like your riots. Now…
DATRE：比如你们的暴乱。现在...

JOHN: Your gang wars.
约翰：你们的帮派战争。

DATRE: Yes. But you know, now you talk about the riots. Now you at one time, not too long ago in your “history” had riots due to different things. But your biggest riots took place in your universities.
达崔：是的。但你知道，现在你谈到骚乱。不久前在你们的"历史"中，你们曾因各种原因发生过骚乱。但最大规模的骚乱发生在你们的大学里。

University rage would build up and now you have some individual coming into a school and shooting down people. But that’s small in comparison.
校园里的愤怒不断累积，现在你们看到有人持枪闯入学校射杀人群。但这相比之下还算小规模。

But, that individual with the gun had not yet realized what rage is all about.
然而，那个持枪者尚未真正理解愤怒的本质。

JOHN: They also had not come to realize what creativity is all about. Because that’s part of the lesson.
约翰：他们尚未领悟创造力的真谛。因为这也是课程的一部分。

DATRE: Well, of course. Yes, that is part of the lesson. And the more you learn about all of that you will diminish this and then you will begin to grow through that which we call experience. It is your awareness of what is going on and being able to look at it and understand it from a first hand experience.
达崔：当然，没错，这确实是课程的一部分。你对这些了解得越多，就越能消减暴力倾向，然后通过我们称之为"经验"的过程开始成长。关键在于你能否觉察当下发生的事，并能够以第一手经验去观察和理解它。

That’s the only thing that makes it work.
这是唯一有效的途径。

JOHN: And slow learners keep diminishing their involvement in violence down to the wife beater, for example. That’s probably their last experience along those lines.
约翰：以学习进度慢的人为例，他们会逐渐减少暴力行为，最后可能只剩下殴打妻子这种程度。那大概就是他们在这条路上的最终体验了。

DATRE: Yes. We also have to bring in here, there have also been, to a lesser degree, women that have had to go through this process.
DATRE：是的。我们还需要指出的是，虽然数量较少，但也有女性不得不经历这种过程。

JOHN: Yes.
JOHN：确实。

DATRE: When you talk about wife beating, there are numerous cases that you never hear about , the wife beating the husband. But that one is always swept under the rug in one way or another.
DATRE：当谈到家庭暴力时，有许多你从未听闻的案例其实是妻子殴打丈夫。但这类事件总是以各种方式被掩盖起来。

JOHN: They used to have a very famous comic strip that showed that.
JOHN：以前有个非常著名的连环漫画就描绘过这种情况。

DATRE: I do not know that – I do not know comics.
DATRE：我不知道——我不了解漫画。

JOHN: That’s what I’m saying. Comics tend to show the culture of the day.
JOHN：这正是我说的。漫画往往反映当时的文化。

DATRE: Yes, they do.
DATRE：确实如此。

JOHN: There used to be a “Maggie and Jiggs” comic strip and Maggie was forever whacking Jiggs over the head with a frying pan or a rolling pin or what ever.
JOHN：以前有个叫《麦琪和吉格斯》的连环漫画，麦琪总是用煎锅、擀面杖之类的东西敲打吉格斯的头。

DATRE: Yes, yes. But you see, that is not as prevalent in that which you call today.
DATRE：是的，没错。但你看，这种现象在你们所谓的当今时代已不那么普遍了。

JOHN: No. In today’s world they would look at that and say. What kind of silliness is that?
JOHN：确实。在当今世界，人们看到这种情形会说：这是什么愚蠢把戏？

DATRE: But, it still happens.
DATRE：但这类事件仍在发生。

JOHN: Oh, yes it still happens today.
JOHN：噢，是的，如今依然会发生。

DATRE: There are little pockets here and there.
DATRE：这里那里都有一些小群体。

In fact, that is one of the things that some of your other countries that are, shall we say, in their life experiencing areas are experiencing those very things.
事实上，这正是你们其他一些国家正在经历的——我们可以说，那些处于生命体验阶段的地区正在经历这些事情。

JOHN: Even to the extent… that also answers the question of these, what they call martyrdom for these Islam suicide bombers. That’s the way they’re learning and that’s a right up front personal way of learning.
JOHN：甚至到了这种程度…这也回答了关于那些所谓的伊斯兰自杀式炸弹袭击者"殉道"的问题。这就是他们的学习方式，是一种非常直接的个人学习方式。

DATRE: Yes. That’s exactly right. They strap that stuff on themselves and blow themselves up.
DATRE：是的，完全正确。他们把那些东西绑在身上然后引爆自己。

JOHN: With everybody around. That’s just examples of the kinds of dynamics going on.
约翰：当周围都是人的时候。这些只是正在发生的各种动态关系的例子。

DATRE: But you see, that is a great deal smaller than a continent with warring people all over the continent.
达崔：但你看，这比起整个大陆上到处都有交战人群的情况要小得多。

JOHN: Oh. Yes.
约翰：哦，是的。

DATRE: So that is… again, another learning experience, and that is what you have to get through in order to be able to… Its an individual thing. And there are less and less individuals that are…
达崔：所以这...又是一次学习经历，而你必须经历这些才能...这是个人的事情。而且越来越少的人能够...

Now, you talk about the… all the people that have been, shall we say, murdered in these like India, not India, Africa and places like that. And they… in Africa there have been a few renegades groups of men that have killed thousands and thousands.
现在，你们谈论那些...所有在这些地方，比如印度——不，是非洲之类的地方，可以说被谋杀的人们。而在非洲...确实存在一些反叛的武装团体，他们杀害了成千上万的人。

JOHN: That is still going on.
约翰：这种情况仍在持续。

DATRE: It is still going on. But you see, that has to be worked through in their culture.
DATRE：确实仍在继续。但你们要明白，这是他们文化中必须经历的过程。

JOHN: There are other realities that have this, realities that reference off of this reality that have the same lessons going on to… Like for example, there are two other realities that actually had an atomic war.
约翰：其他平行现实中也存在类似情况，那些以这个现实为参照的平行世界里，相同的课题正在上演...比如，就有另外两个平行现实确实爆发过核战争。

DATRE: Yes, very definitely.
DATRE：是的，非常确定。

JOHN: You see, those individuals were of such a make-up that, that’s the level of intensity they had to experience.
JOHN：你看，那些个体的构造决定了他们必须体验那种强度的经历。

DATRE: That’s exactly right.
DATRE：完全正确。

JOHN: But this reality didn’t have that, because the individuals collectively in here didn’t have that kind of intensity.
JOHN：但这个现实世界并不具备那种强度，因为这里的个体集体意识尚未达到那种程度。

DATRE: No, but you see, that was another thing that was being experienced with Chernobyl.
DATRE：不，但你看，切尔诺贝利事件中还经历了另一件事。

JOHN: Yes, right. That Chernobyl and Three Mile Island and those events were parallels to these realities that had nuclear war.
JOHN：对，没错。切尔诺贝利和三哩岛这些事件，与那些发生核战争的现实是平行对应的。

DATRE: That’s Exactly right.
DATRE：完全正确。

JOHN: Those were the parallel correlates.
约翰：那些就是平行关联体。

DATRE: That’s the parallel correlates. You see, if you could see into other realities, you could see this. But, because you can’t, you have to be able to put things together in order to see how it flows.
道瑞：这就是平行关联体。你看，如果你能窥见其他现实，就能明白这一点。但由于你们无法做到，就必须通过拼凑线索来理解其中的流动规律。

Because, it flows, in fact that is one of the things that we are going to talk about some place, maybe in this book, I’m not sure. But talk about the movement that you can make into parallel or horizontal…
因为现实确实在流动——事实上这正是我们后续要探讨的话题之一，可能就在这本书里（我不太确定）。我们将讨论你们如何能够纵向或横向地进入平行...

JOHN: Other realities, either vertical or horizontal, whatever.
约翰：...其他现实维度，无论是纵向还是横向的，诸如此类。

DATRE: Well, the thing is, its harder to go vertically, because you don’t have the understanding. That is, what you would call, a big leap to go up. Because going up is very difficult because you hit like this big, what do you call it? You call it the glass ceiling – alright, you hit a glass ceiling.
DATRE：问题是，垂直上升更为困难，因为你们缺乏理解。那可以说是向上飞跃的巨大障碍。向上攀登之所以艰难，是因为你们会撞上那个巨大的——你们怎么称呼它来着？玻璃天花板——没错，你们会撞上玻璃天花板。

JOHN: That’s what the parallel… that’s what many of us are headed towards. This reality has reached a balance point where there’s more than the majority has learned those lessons. So that portion is building a new reality where they don’t have to deal with those that are still working that out.
JOHN：这正是平行...这正是我们许多人正在前往的方向。这个现实已经达到平衡点，绝大多数人已经学会了那些课题。因此这部分人正在构建一个新现实，在那里他们不必与那些仍在解决这些问题的人纠缠。

DATRE: That’s right. You can go into a new reality and those who need to learn the lesson of 1^st. grade can stay and work out their reasons and enjoyment (for some) for going to war.
DATRE：没错。你们可以进入新现实，而那些需要学习初级课题的人可以留下，继续解决他们（对某些人而言）参与战争的缘由和乐趣。

JOHN: That’s the new reality that we’re talking about.
JOHN：这就是我们所说的新现实。

DATRE: And that is what we have been telling all the time, that changes are taking place and are going to have to take place because those that are ready to move on are being stymied by those that still don’t want change.
DATRE：这正是我们一直在强调的——变革正在发生且必须发生，因为那些准备前行的人正被抗拒改变者所阻碍。

JOHN: Are still living that. You’ve got the graduates and you’ve got the first graders all mixed together.
JOHN：这种状态仍在持续。就像毕业生和一年级新生被硬塞在同一个教室里。

DATRE: Yes. And the Millennium is going to get… The Millennium is what you would call a long stretch of time. So for those that are wanting to make the change. That is going to take them into another reality where they’ve got a whole new change, a whole new experience spectrum.
DATRE：没错。而千禧年将会...所谓千禧年，用你们的话说就是一段漫长的时期。对于那些渴望转变的人，这将引领他们进入全新的现实维度，体验彻底革新的存在光谱。

A whole new group of possibilities and probabilities available to them, that they can’t get in this one.
他们将获得当前维度无法触及的全新可能性与概率集合。

Its not that anything is separated or anything is being stopped, the only thing that is stopping anything, is your understanding.
并非有什么东西被分离或阻隔，唯一阻碍一切的，只是你的理解。

Then, as you understand, then you can move on.
当你理解之后，就能继续前行。

JOHN: True. Then you can develop greater freedoms to understand more.
约翰：确实。这样你就能获得更大的自由去理解更多。

DATRE: But, the thing is, you have to reach a certain point, shall we say, in order to begin the development of a whole new reality spectrum.
DATRE：但关键在于，你必须达到某个临界点，才能开始发展一个全新的现实维度。

With new possibilities and probabilities and new thoughts and new concepts, that’s the other thing you’re going to be getting into. Is learning different thoughts and concepts.
随着新可能、新概率、新思维和新概念的出现，这正是你们即将深入探索的领域。学习不同的思想和概念至关重要。

So, the more you can do now, to help move everyone that is ready to move into the New Millennium, its already begun, it began a number of years ago and its been gradually growing in size and in scope.
因此，你们现在能做的越多，就越能帮助所有准备好迈入新千年的灵魂。这一进程早已开始，多年前便已启动，其规模和范围正在逐步扩大。

This is what its all about. That is why we have said, “a New Millennium”, It gave you something to look forward to. Rather than saying, “are we stopped now? Why can’t we go any further?”.
这就是全部意义所在。正因如此我们才提出"新千年"的概念——它赋予你们值得期待的未来。而非困在"我们现在停滞了吗？为何无法继续前进？"的迷思中。

You can go further. You can go further starting right this very minute. You can go further. You can go as far as…
你们完全可以走得更远。从此刻起就能更进一步。你们能够持续突破，直至抵达……

JOHN: As fast as you learn.
约翰：你学得有多快，就能领悟多快。

DATRE: As fast as you learn. But, you have to understand. Its not understanding other than it’s a “knowingness” that you understand. Its that deep down “AH HA” that you get when you say, “ah ha I finally understand”.
道瑞：你学得有多快，就能领悟多快。但你必须明白，这不是普通的理解，而是一种"知晓"——当你恍然大悟说出"啊哈，我终于明白了"时，那种发自内心的顿悟才是真正的理解。

That is what is going to take you… because once you understand, five minutes from now, you’ll say, “Oh, that old stuff”. Because you’ve absorbed it, you understand it. That is what this is all about.
正是这种领悟将引领你前行...因为一旦你真正理解，五分钟之后你就会说："哦，那都是老黄历了"。因为你已经吸收了它，消化了它。这就是全部意义所在。

Alright, we are Datre.
好了，我们是道瑞。

(From the Seth material) Many of the participants in large scale violence never realized that they had access to so much power. Thus the idea that it could be used creatively never entered their heads.
（摘自赛斯资料）许多参与大规模暴力事件的人从未意识到自己拥有如此巨大的力量。因此，他们从未想过这种力量可以用于创造性目的。

Such massive use of energy will be used, in your far future, to begin to unify your whole planet in peace. But this will not happen until other large scale disasters occur. But when it does occur it will be the first time there was peace and equality on your planet.
在你们遥远的未来，这种大规模的能量运用将被用于开启全球和平统一。但这要等到其他大规模灾难发生后才会实现。当那一刻真正来临时，这将是你们星球上首次出现和平与平等的景象。

OBESITY
肥胖症

DATRE: (JUNE 2006) What do we have today John?
DATRE：（2006 年 6 月）约翰，今天我们要讨论什么？

JOHN: I have some questions on obesity, which is a common situation, in the United States anyway.
约翰：关于肥胖问题我有些疑问，这在美国是个普遍现象。

DATRE: Alright.
DATRE：好的。

JOHN: It begins; Datre, some of us are very unhealthy with excess weight. There seems to be many reasons for this, genetic, overeating, stress, etc.
约翰：开始吧，Datre，我们中有些人因体重超标而非常不健康。造成这种情况的原因似乎有很多，遗传、暴饮暴食、压力等等。

What I want to know is, how important is our weight in the scheme of all things?
我想知道的是，在万物运行的法则中，我们的体重有多重要？

DATRE: It is important only if you make it so. It is like everything else, the more you concentrate on the fact “I don’t want it” the more the body will cling to it.
DATRE：只有当你认为它重要时它才重要。就像其他所有事情一样，你越是专注于"我不想要它"这个念头，身体就越会紧紧抓住它不放。

The body has a peculiar mechanism within its very beingness, in the fact that it has its own intelligence. In other words, you don’t know about the intelligence of the body, because its never been anything that’s been explained to you.
身体在其存在本质中拥有一种独特的机制，即它具备与生俱来的智慧。换句话说，你并不了解身体的智慧，因为从来没有人向你解释过这一点。

But in order to have that which you call a physical containment of a body. The very Anu, the cells that go together to make that which you call, even as an innocuous things that you pay no attention to, is your skin.
但为了形成你们所称的物理躯体容器。即便是那些你们毫不在意的平凡存在——比如皮肤，也是由最基础的阿努粒子（细胞）共同构建而成的。

The cells have an intelligence. Otherwise it would not form itself into skin. Just as an example, something probably no one has ever paid any attention to, look at your hands.
细胞拥有智慧。否则它们不会自行组织成皮肤。举个可能从未有人注意过的例子：看看你的双手。

Look at the wrinkles on top of the joints. Why have you got wrinkles there? Because, if you didn’t have wrinkles you couldn’t bend your fingers. And the older you get the more wrinkles you have, because your cells do not go back into the same order all the time and so you have more wrinkles on the top of your joints of your fingers.
观察指关节上的皱纹。为什么那里会有皱纹？因为如果没有这些皱纹，你就无法弯曲手指。随着年龄增长，皱纹会越来越多，因为你的细胞无法始终保持原有的排列秩序，所以指关节上的皱纹会逐渐加深。

Your first joint. Your second joint doesn’t need it because it doesn’t bend to the extent that the first one does. Your second joint next to your fingernail isn’t doing very much.
你的第一个指关节。第二个指关节不需要它，因为它的弯曲程度不及第一个。靠近指甲的第二个指关节活动幅度很小。

The thing is, in that which you call everyday, you don’t pay any attention to your hands. But they’re very unique.
关键在于，在你所谓的日常生活中，你从不会注意自己的双手。但它们其实非常独特。

Its not only the hands, its everything that’s underneath the skin that you don’t pay any attention to. You don’t pay any attention to the outside, you don’t pay any attention to the inside.
不仅是双手，皮肤之下的一切你都未曾留意。你既不在意外部，也不关注内在。

Then, if you had to pay attention to just one hand, that would keep you busy all the time, you wouldn’t have time to do anything else.
那么，如果你必须专注于一只手，这会让你时刻忙碌，再没时间做其他事情。

Because you’ve got all your veins, and your corpuscles, and your tendons, and your…
因为你拥有全部的血管、血球、肌腱，还有你的……

JOHN: Nerves.
约翰：神经。

DATRE: Nerves and everything else. You’ve got fingernails that are growing. You have everything that’s happening all the time.
DATRE：神经以及其他一切。你的指甲在不断生长。你体内每时每刻都在发生着各种活动。

And because of that, it has its own intelligence.
正因如此，身体自有其智慧。

Now, as to the obesity part of it, you don’t pay any attention to your hands. Your hands are there to do the work. You might scrape them or you might pound them with a hammer when you’re nailing something, or whatever.
至于肥胖问题本身，你从不会在意自己的双手。双手生来就是干活的——钉东西时可能会被刮伤，或者被锤子砸到，诸如此类。

You fall down, you scrape your knee, you get a scab on it and so forth. Those are things that happen and you don’t pay any attention to them.
摔倒时膝盖擦破皮、结痂这类事时有发生，你根本不会放在心上。

But, what are you paying attention to now? Because you see it constantly in front of you. Every time you turn on the television, every time you turn on the radio, every time you walk out your front door, you see the same thing in front of you, obese people.
但如今什么吸引了你的注意力？因为它时刻出现在你眼前——每次打开电视、收听广播，甚至刚迈出家门，映入眼帘的全是肥胖人群。

People take two different attitudes towards obesity. One of them, “I’m not going to get that way”. So they start an exercise routine. They go to a gym, they run, they do this, they do that, they do something else to keep themselves fit. Because they don’t want the lumps and bumps. Okay.
人们对肥胖持有两种态度。第一种是"我绝不能变成那样"，于是开始健身计划：去健身房、跑步、做各种运动来保持身材，因为他们拒绝赘肉缠身。这很合理。

Other people say, “Oh, I should loose weight, but you know, I just can’t leave that alone its so good”. Well, the only thing that’s good about food is what you taste in your mouth. Or if you smell it, you go by some place and you smell the odor of popcorn or something like that. It says immediately, “Oh, I want that. I want it, it smells so good”.
别人常说："唉，我应该减肥的，但那些美食实在太诱人了，根本戒不掉"。其实食物带来的愉悦感只存在于两种时刻：要么是入口时的滋味，要么是路过时闻到的爆米花之类的香气。这些气味会立刻唤醒欲望："哇，好香！我好想吃"。

But if you couldn’t smell and you couldn’t taste, how much enjoyment would you get out of food?
但如果你失去嗅觉和味觉，食物还能带来多少享受呢？

So you see, it’s a catch 22.
你看，这就像个无解的死循环。

There are those that don’t want it. There are those that want it. But, if it becomes an obsession, which it does, either you try to ignore it, you look at your self in the mirror, but you only look at the front of your self. Because you don’t dare turn sideways or see your back.
有人对美食无感，有人则欲罢不能。但当食欲演变成执念时——它确实会——你要么假装视而不见，只敢对着镜子看正脸；要么根本不敢侧身，更不敢看自己的后背。

You see, it becomes something that you notice all the time whether you want it or not.
你看，不管愿不愿意，这都会变成你时刻注意到的事情。

And men will say, “Well it doesn’t matter to me one way or the other”. It does. What you’re doing is you’re suppressing it, you’re pushing it back. And all you’re doing then, is suppressing, you’re adding to because you know its there, you don’t like it, “I have to get pants of such and such a size now, but I can remember when I was…tada, tada, tada.
男人们会说："这对我无所谓"。其实有所谓。你只是在压抑它，把它往后推。而你所做的只是压抑，你在累积问题，因为你知道它存在，你不喜欢它，"我现在得穿这么大码的裤子了，但我还记得以前......巴拉巴拉"。

Well, you look at pictures of people in European countries. The majority of the people that you see walking down the street on the television, the people are not obese.
看看欧洲国家人们的照片吧。电视里走在街上的大多数人，体型都不肥胖。

You know why? In many countries they have very small refrigerators they go to the store every day to get fresh milk or fresh vegetables or whatever. But, the walk to the store and they walk back from the store.
知道为什么吗？在许多国家，他们的冰箱很小，每天都要去商店买新鲜牛奶、新鲜蔬菜什么的。但他们是走去商店，又从商店走回来。

And even in the big cities in order to get from one place to another they have to walk great distances in order to procure what they want to procure. There are stores in European countries that all they have is, you walk in the store and there’s nothing but frozen food.
即便在大城市里，人们为了从一处前往另一处采购所需物品，也不得不步行很远的距离。欧洲国家的某些商店里，走进去只能看到冷冻食品，除此之外别无他物。

So they buy all their frozen food and they take it home and they have a special freezer. So that means that they only have to go to the corner store to get their fresh produce.
于是他们买齐冷冻食品带回家，专门存放在冰柜里。这意味着他们只需去街角小店就能买到新鲜农产品。

So that is an entirely different life style than you have in the United States. Not only that, in the majority of your European countries not as much as, what you call junk food, is consumed. Because its so handy to stop and get a hamburger. Its so handy to stop and get a slice of pizza and a coke.
这种生活方式与美国截然不同。不仅如此，在大多数欧洲国家，你们所谓的垃圾食品消费量也少得多。因为在美国，停下来买个汉堡实在太方便了，随手就能买片披萨配可乐。

So you’re eating entirely different foods.
所以你们摄入的是完全不同的食物。

Then the kids talk about that which you call the “zits”. Alright, have you ever noticed that some of the countries that are different than your country, the Asian countries, you’ll notice that their teenagers have zits. Its very different when you see Chinese person or a Japanese person have zits on their faces.
接着孩子们会讨论你所谓的"青春痘"。你看啊，你有没有注意到有些国家——那些和你们国家不同的亚洲国家——那里的青少年也会长痘。但当你看到中国人或日本人脸上长痘时，情况就大不相同了。

Because that is something that is totally unknown to their bodies. Because they are not used to eating the type of food that you consume every day and don’t even think about it.
因为这对他们的身体来说是完全陌生的东西。毕竟他们不习惯每天摄入你们习以为常的那些食物。

So you see, different cultures have different ways of eating. They have different … they don’t exercise like you do. Unless they happen to be in some martial arts or something like that.
所以说，不同文化有不同的饮食习惯。他们有不一样的...他们不像你们那样运动。除非他们正好在练武术之类的。

But your American life style has become very, very different.
但你们美国人的生活方式已经变得非常非常不同了。

I think, there’s many things, like you said, that account for obesity here in this country. But I would say one of the big things that the majority of the people are not aware of, is the fact that your energy on your planet has changed considerably.
我认为，正如你所说，导致这个国家肥胖问题的因素有很多。但我要指出一个大多数人尚未意识到的重要事实——你们星球上的能量场已经发生了巨大改变。

Do you find very many places within this planet of yours that people are satisfied with the life they are leading? There is dissention. There is unhappiness. There’s anger. There is all your fear, which is a big number.
你是否发现，在这个星球上真正对现有生活感到满足的人寥寥无几？这里充斥着分歧、痛苦、愤怒，还有你们所有的恐惧情绪——这些负面能量占据了相当大的比重。

JOHN: Frustration.
约翰：挫败感。

DATRE: Frustration. And all of this adds tension to the body and the body holds that tension. And, that in itself will produce the symptoms of weight. You can step on the scale and you probably are not that much different than you were ten years ago.
DATRE：挫败感。所有这些都会给身体施加压力，而身体会持续承载这种紧绷状态。单就这一点，便足以引发体重异常的症状。即便你站上体重秤，可能发现自己的体重与十年前相差无几。

But the scale will register that, but it also registers the energy mass that you are holding that is not your own.
但秤会记录下这些，同时也会记录你所承载的那些不属于你自身的能量质量。

Yes, there is that which you call “genetics”, but do you know what genetics is? Genetics are belief systems that, “I’m exactly like my mother”, “I’m exactly like my father”, “I’m exactly like my grandparents”.
是的，确实存在你们所称的"遗传基因"，但你们可知道遗传基因究竟是什么？遗传基因就是那些"我和母亲一模一样"、"我和父亲如出一辙"、"我完全继承了祖父母特质"的信念体系。

Well my grandparents on this side of my family were all, we were all heavy people. So therefore I’m nothing more than a carbon copy of whoever.
唉，我家族这一脉的祖辈们都是，我们全家都是体型魁梧的人。所以我就不过是某某人的复刻品罢了。

That’s another thing that’s overlooked. How many times do you refer to, “Oh, you know I do that just exactly like my mother did”. “I can remember my dad taught me how to fish” or “My dad taught me how to use a hammer” or whatever. “Why I do just exactly like my dad did”.
这是另一个被忽视的事实。你们多少次说过这样的话："噢，你知道吗，我做事的方式和我母亲当年一模一样"，"我记得是父亲教我钓鱼的"，或是"父亲教我怎么用锤子"之类。"难怪我的做法和父亲当年分毫不差"。

You see, what you don’t notice is you’re busy copying because you always needed a role model.
你看，你没意识到的是，你忙着模仿是因为你总需要个榜样。

You look at today’s world and you don’t have that many role models that you want to be fashioned after. You may want to be this that or the next thing, but you know its an impossibility, so you accept yourself as you are – but I wish I were.
环顾当今世界，值得你效仿的榜样其实寥寥无几。你或许想成为这样那样的人，但深知那不可能，于是便安于现状——可心底里却想着"要是我能那样该多好"。

That’s not acceptance. That’s not accepting who you are when you say, “Well, I’m alright the way I am”. But deep down you’re saying, “Boy I sure wish I looked more like that model”.
这根本不是接纳自我。当你说"我现在这样挺好"时，其实并未真正接受自己。内心深处你仍在想："天啊，我真希望能更像那个模特"。

Men do the same thing. Men are coloring their hair. Men are having those treatment so that they take out the lines in their faces. They’re having facial surgery. There’s more men that are having facial surgery now then women – believe it or not.
男人也一样。他们染发，做除皱护理，接受面部整形手术。信不信由你，如今做整容手术的男性比女性还多。

JOHN: And hair transplants.
约翰：还有植发手术。

DATRE: Hair transplants, everything you can think of. Because, they don’t want to grow old. They want to stay young and vital. And how many sports programs do you watch that they tell about sexual enhancement by these drugs?
DATRE：植发手术，你能想到的一切手段。因为他们不愿变老，渴望保持年轻活力。你看了多少体育节目里宣传那些药物能增强性能力？

But don’t take them if… Then the page or two that they give you of what is going to happen when you take that pill. It worst then what you’ve got as a symptom in the first place.
但千万别服用...接着他们会用一两页篇幅列出服药后可能出现的副作用，那些症状比你原本的问题还要糟糕得多。

But you see, you’re totally unaware of that. You accept yourself as you are, as what other people see. But do you accept the inward part of your self? That’s the par of your self that needs to be addressed.
但你看，你完全没意识到这点。你接受别人眼中的自己，但可曾接纳过内在的自我？那才是需要你正视的部分。

The finding out “who” you are. And that makes a great deal of difference.
发现"你是谁"。这会产生巨大的不同。

Obesity comes from many things. Accept the fact that you’ve got all these things. Then do something about it or leave it alone.
肥胖源于多种因素。接受你具备所有这些因素的事实。然后要么采取行动，要么顺其自然。

Make a decision. Don’t change your mind everyday of the week. Leave your baggage behind. Either accept it or reject it. Continue.
做出决定。不要一周七天都在改变主意。放下你的包袱。要么接受它，要么拒绝它。继续前进。

JOHN: Some of this may have already been answered, but anyway. Does being overweight cut our lives short or is that just something we have told ourselves for so long we believe it?
约翰：其中一些问题可能已有答案，但无论如何。超重会缩短我们的寿命，还是这只是我们长期自我暗示后形成的信念？

DATRE: I can’t see that that in and of itself is going to cut your life short. You have a great deal tied up in that which you call your belief of your weight.
DATRE：我不认为这本身会缩短你的寿命。你把太多东西与你所谓的体重信念捆绑在一起了。

Speaking of “beliefs”, food has nothing to do with body size or weight. It is only you peoples “belief” that food has an effect on your body image that gives you concern.
说到"信念"，食物与体型或体重毫无关系。只是你们人类"相信"食物会影响身材，这种信念才让你们焦虑。

That is not “one” thing. That is a multiple of things.
那不是"单一"因素，而是多重因素的叠加。

Basically, you have a hidden fear that causes all kind of things to go wrong with the body, because it builds tension. You have anxieties – that builds tension.
本质上，你内心潜藏的恐惧会引发各种身体问题，因为它制造紧张。你的焦虑感——也会制造紧张。

I would venture to say that as far as your obesity is concerned, there have been a great many people that have been extremely obese, that have lived quite a number of years.
我敢说，就你的肥胖问题而言，曾有无数极度肥胖者都活了很多年。

But, there again, it’s the acceptance or the rejection. It’s the decision that is made by you as to what you will accept and what you will allow yourself to live with.
但问题又回到接纳或抗拒上。关键在于你决定接受什么、允许自己与什么共存。

You live with yourself every day, it doesn’t matter what other people say or what other people do, its what you will accept yourself to be. It is the acceptance of “self” that is important.
你每天都要与自己相处，别人说什么做什么都不重要，重要的是你愿意接受怎样的自己。这种"自我接纳"才是关键。

If you accept yourself as you are, that releases the tension. There have been many, many people who have done nothing, as far as diet, exercise, all the rest of it – that have dropped weight.
若能全然接纳当下的自己，压力自然消解。有太多人无需节食运动就成功减重——他们什么都没做。

Simply because, they have come to terms with themselves.
只因为他们已与自我达成和解。

That’s what happens to a great deal of cancer patients. What heals a cancer patient? Its themselves. They have to believe in themselves as they are.
这正是多数癌症患者的真实写照。治愈癌症患者的是什么？正是他们自己。他们必须接纳并相信当下的自己。

I do not care for the “wording” that is used by people when it comes to a disease or an imperfection of the body of any kind. What do they say? Fighting the disease.
我从不认同人们描述疾病或身体缺陷时惯用的"措辞"。他们总说什么？与病魔抗争。

The fight is not anybody else’s. But, why do you fight with yourself? When you stop and think about it, its another strange thing. You came in here to work with physicality. But how can you do it if you “fight” the very vehicle that you have planed for yourself?
这场战斗不属于任何外人。但为何要与自己为敌？细想之下，这又是件怪事。你降临人世本为体验物质形体。若你"对抗"自己精心选择的载具，又如何达成目的？

It isn’t logical.
这不合逻辑。

JOHN: And its one that you continually create, in “your” image.
约翰：而且这个形象是你不断按照"你的"样子创造出来的。